Force Powers

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20 Nov 2019 23:31 - 20 Nov 2019 23:47 #345856 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic Force Powers

Fyxe wrote: so if I understand you gist, you are saying that:

First off this is just impossible because your a genius physics guy and you just know.

No. I didn't say it was "just impossible", I said it was "pretty much impossible". Learn to read.


Your an expert film maker with CGI who could have faked this better and because of that you have strong expectations that this must be faked.

Wrong again. I never said I was any sort of film maker, let alone an expert one. I never said I could have faked it a better way, only a different way. Learn to read. My expectation that this is fake stems from the fact that it is pretty much physically impossible. I am not saying the film footage itself was tampered with through CGI techniques, but had it looked convincing in the first place, there would still be reasonable doubt due to the existence and quality of even TV grade CGI at the time of the show's airing.


There is editing breaks in it so they must be decieving us.

Cuts in editing are normal. Very rarely do we find film makers publishing all of their recorded footage unedited. There is however a continuity error which is almost completely inexplicable under the model whereby the levitation was real and almost completely trivial to explain under the model whereby it was fake. Combine it with the fact that levitating like this is pretty much physically impossible whilst doing a parlor trick is easy and inexpensive, and already a strong case is on our hands. This is an inference to the simplest explanation, not a proof.
Maybe you have a model that is even simpler than that the man stood up and sat down on a shovel in the middle of the procedure and was lifted by a handle reaching behind the curtain, by all means, I'm all ears. If your model can account for the inconsistencies and oddities and for why the producer didn't choose to re-shoot or re-edit the footage such as to fully conceal it - like the part where the monk covered his shoe with the robe as you assert in a second. It must have happened on the other camera and the editor decided to show us instead the host's face during that moment, presumably so you and I can debate it or so, let's hear it.

My model accounts for all of the oddities and is compatible with physics as we know it: It proposes the shovel to explain the robe displacement, and the shovelstick to explain the robe's motion. Notice, that while the crew were filming all around the monk back when we could see the shoe, once the levitation phase started, there is not a single shot showing us any of the space directly behind him. My model explains this by saying that the crew wouldn't want to risk breaking the illusion even more than it already has by outright showing the mechanism of levitation.
Your model, meanwhile, has to propose highly contentious magical powers and is yet to account for all of the sloppiness on the film makers' part. So far it already accounts for things like curtain motion by introducing a sudden gust of wind that didn't blow out any candles we get to see and came from a direction we have no footage of. And it accounts for the robe displacement by proposing the monk's interrupting his deep otherwise almost fully unmoving meditation at some point when we don't get to see him do it, only to cover a shoe for reasons unstated.


The man covered his shoe with his robe before he levatated and so this PROVES he faked it! I mean obviously you cant levitate if your shoe is covered!

No. Learn to read.


Oh and money and conspiracy are obvious in this show even though there is ABSOLUTELY no proof of this, you just get to assert thais because... why again?

I didn't assert conspiracy, I asserted money. Because that is what shows are made for, believe it or don't. There was no way the crew wouldn't have been in on it if it was a deception, but if it wasn't, their goal is still to get you to tune in next time. It's not about informing you about the wonders of the universe, that's what literature, philosophy, and science educators are tasked to do. These people are entertainers first, that's why they filmed it, and that is why they aired it, whether it was real or not.

Last edit: 20 Nov 2019 23:47 by Gisteron.
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21 Nov 2019 00:22 #345859 by steamboat28
Replied by steamboat28 on topic Force Powers

Fyxe wrote: so if I understand you gist, you are saying that:

First off this is just impossible because your a genius physics guy and you just know.

Your an expert film maker with CGI who could have faked this better and because of that you have strong expectations that this must be faked.

There is editing breaks in it so they must be decieving us.

The man covered his shoe with his robe before he levatated and so this PROVES he faked it! I mean obviously you cant levitate if your shoe is covered!

Oh and money and conspiracy are obvious in this show even though there is ABSOLUTELY no proof of this, you just get to assert thais because... why again?


What he's saying is that this is an ancient trick used to fleece people out of money. It's been done for centuries, nearly unchanged.
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21 Nov 2019 00:37 #345862 by Omhu Cuspor
Replied by Omhu Cuspor on topic Force Powers
A recommendation regarding the kind of thing shown on that video:

If we are researching the reality or non-reality of events like that, doing a bit of study into stage magic helps. My first recommendation would be the book "Houdini on Magic", which after many decades appears to be still in print and also available used.

Harry Houdini (real name Eric Weiss), as some may know, was a consummate magician and showman in his day who, in the latter part of his career, focused his efforts on exposing fraudulent spiritual mediums. He'd consulted mediums himself when he was grieving the loss of his beloved mother, and became furious when his insight into trickery revealed to him how those he visited defrauded the public.

Much of "Houdini on Magic" is for other performers, describing how to perform various tricks or how to make a good impression upon an audience. But there is one chapter (a somewhat long one, I recall) that goes into significant detail about Houdini's battle with a medium named Margery. Margery, prior to meeting Houdini, had quite a following, and even convinced scientists who imposed the best controls upon her they could design that she was the real deal. Houdini proved that everything Margery did - causing objects to float, making voices come forth from the empty air, and so on - was just a bundle of magician's tricks. He did the same thing with countless other mediums, but Margery I believe was his most famous, and well-documented, case.

I'm not trying to say that paranormal events don't happen; I actually happen to think they do. I wouldn't make the absolute claim no one can levitate, though I am skeptical. But in this case, that monk's move from being out in the open to near the curtain was an immediate tell. Why did he do that? If he needed to be a distance from his interviewer, why did he pick right next to the curtain, and right in the center of it where there is likely an opening from which a support could be extended? Any charlatan could do the same, and since the field of claimants to paranormal power is, regrettably, heavily populated with charlatans, we have to consider the likelihood that - due to using similar methods - this fellow is one of them.

I'd think someone who was really a master of levitation would be somewhat similar to a master of the guitar in one respect. A real guitarist can play on a sidewalk, in a coffee shop, or in the middle of a mall; a phony might stand in front of a closed curtain, behind which plays a CD of Segovia as s/he silently plucks dampened strings.

It's a moral crime, imo. In this case, it discredits Buddhism. Should there be people out there with genuine psychic powers, a performance like this robs them of credibility as well. It inspires all of us to trust one another at least a bit less.

In a field of study like this, we are required to consider stringent criteria for verifying experiences. We are looking for diamonds in a field of coal, where each coal-lump says "Hey, look at me, I'm a diamond!"
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21 Nov 2019 08:49 - 21 Nov 2019 09:22 #345873 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic Force Powers

Omhu Cuspor wrote: It's a moral crime, imo. In this case, it discredits Buddhism. Should there be people out there with genuine psychic powers, a performance like this robs them of credibility as well. It inspires all of us to trust one another at least a bit less.

This is a very good point, too! Granted, I'm not particularly concerned with the credibility of genuine psychics. While the abundance of illusionists makes us scrutinize them all the more, it's not necessarily unfair. Ideally we should be sceptical of any claim no matter how many times we have been lied about it. We are forgiving to people who haven't or about claims we have not heard before out of generosity, not because it's the intellectually honest or a consistent thing to do.
Besides, genuine psychics should be able to live up to the fairer, stricter standards anyway, so not much of a loss to them this is.

But what the charlatans are doing is make a mockery of not just the "real psychics" if those exist, but of just regular, genuine believers. The tricksters exploit the believers' willingness to accept things uncritically and make them believe lies. It also makes a frankly disgusting and disrespectful mockery of the spiritual traditions themselves. There are real benefits to meditation. It helps people keep a healthier heart and a cooler head and for many it is a spiritual practice through which they find emotional peace. This is a perfectly respectable and realistic promise that gets called into question in the public mind, because cynical woosters and frauds hope to make a quick buck by callously lumping it in together with promises of magical powers.

Last edit: 21 Nov 2019 09:22 by Gisteron.
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21 Nov 2019 09:07 #345874 by Brick
Replied by Brick on topic Force Powers
I think this answers the question of the magic Monk, both in relation to his long robes and also the curtains behind him.



Apprentice to Maitre Chevalier Jedi Alexandre Orion

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21 Nov 2019 14:09 #345879 by J. K. Barger
Replied by J. K. Barger on topic Force Powers
@Fyxe

I"m no expert, but from what I have read, is that "psychic powers", or whatever you call them or however you define them, are RESULTS from your training; Zen and Tantrik literature abound with references to hallucinations, levitations, OOBE's, telepathy, and things of this nature.

In Zen, they are called "makkyo", They are basically things that distract you from the original aim of your path, which as a Buddhist, is "enlightenment", or satori.. Check more here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makyo

I don't affirm the existence of these things, but my perspective does not preclude their existence.

My questions to you are:

What are you training for?

And what are you willing to give up to attain your goal?

The Force is with you, always.
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21 Nov 2019 17:33 #345881 by Fyxe
Replied by Fyxe on topic Force Powers
JK Im training to become one with the force. I see the Jedi path as one possible area that I might further this pursuit and I am willing to give up nothing, instead I expect to gain everything!

Where ever you go, there you are. Make the best of it.
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21 Nov 2019 18:34 #345882 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic Force Powers
So you are willing to make no sacrifices, and yet expect to obtain "everything"? Does this "everything" you expect to gain include any kind of understanding of anything, be it spiritual tradition or how people operate or how nature does? Or is it "everything" except learning?

At any rate, that is a very unique set of goals. Give naught, get all... Best of luck to you.

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21 Nov 2019 18:54 #345885 by Fyxe
Replied by Fyxe on topic Force Powers
Why would I have to give up anything?

Where ever you go, there you are. Make the best of it.

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21 Nov 2019 21:59 - 21 Nov 2019 22:00 #345895 by Omhu Cuspor
Replied by Omhu Cuspor on topic Force Powers

Fyxe wrote: Why would I have to give up anything?


Hi Fyxe. I think the inference of Gisteron and J.K. Barker here rests in a perception that attainment of almost anything is a trade-off; we must let go of one thing to attain another.

We can see this in all sorts of human ambitions. Billionaire J. Paul Getty once opined that his aspiration to be a powerful, wealthy businessman of necessity made him an inadequate husband; he was unable to devote the necessary time and energy to both roles simultaneously to be successful at each of them. The child who aims to do well in his/her school studies has to sacrifice time playing baseball or reading comic books. Someone devoted to indulgence in an addiction gives up both healthy relationships and a healthy body. The one who seeks enlightenment may have to give up much - some mix of wealth, social interaction, status, physical pleasure, and possibly a portion of the level of sanity required to navigate Earthly life; I recall an early teacher of mine once commenting, "There are a lot of saints in mental hospitals."

Buddha sacrificed his kingship. Jesus sacrificed his life. Gandhi sacrificed physical pleasure to a very significant degree. Yogananda sacrificed his ability to support himself (being forced to turn to his father for financial support for much of his life). In less esoteric pursuits, Jimmy Carter decided to trade a relaxed retirement for a continued life of service. Countless LGBTQ individuals have sacrificed family, occupation, and friendships to attain self-acceptance and self-expression. Three newsworthy Western individuals have had their freedoms seriously restricted in recent years for choosing to make the public aware of nefarious deeds perpetrated by national leaders.

Everything in this realm of existence costs something else; we are always choosing between mutually exclusive alternatives. To slightly paraphrase the Dread Pirate Roberts from the The Princess Bride: "Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying sell you something."

So, imo the question remains relevant. What are we willing to give up to get what we want?
Last edit: 21 Nov 2019 22:00 by Omhu Cuspor. Reason: Corrected a grammatical error
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