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    • A World Without Ageism | Ashton Applewhite (Last post by Zenchi)
    • Wonderful video Alex, thank you for sharing it! Wonder if I just admitted to being "old"? :dry: We do live in a society obsessed with youth, and the youth run with it as far as they can in most cases, unless their parents are well grounded anyways. It certainly sheds light that we are still as a whole, rather unawakened and egocentric in regards to our outlook on longevity and the aging process. I'm at that place where most of the people I socialize with are either older than me, or quite a bit younger. That in itself can create a bit of friction as the younger crowd look at me as if I'm clearly over the hill, and the older crowd laughs when they remind me how young I am while calling me "kiddo." :unsure: So the question I suppose that begs to be asked, is why do we perpetuate all the stereotypes, not just with age, but with race, culture etc? Ingrained belief structures centering around certain stigmas? That's understandably acceptable as an answer for those younger who don't know any better, (quite possibly a result of the following) but what about older generations? Are belief structures still to blame, or are people just lazy and stubborn to admit there's an underlying issue beneath it all, and that is a fear from breaking from the norm and treating people as individuals instead as simply little more than a member of a certain group. Treating people as individuals requires time, it requires us to care enough to get to know someone enough to treat them as Individuals, and time is one thing many seem to lack. Perhaps it's not time that's the problem, perhaps people for the most part, just don't care enough to move past these stigmas in order to break the cycle. That would require work and energy spent, and treating people as Individuals means less time obsessing over the self. And then we wonder why some become anti social... :lol:
    • What would happen if humans disappeared? (Last post by Hrafn)
    • Quote: In my opinion, the planet (and / or entire sector) will be barren once humans are gone. I am not so sure of that, unless we upload our consciousness in a computer (Transcendence style) and turn the entire planet in a machine, life (even bacteria or fungi) will adapt to our absence and will go on starting a new evolutionary path. Moreover, even if we "computerise" all the surface area of the planet and sterilise it natural events such as earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and meteorite impact will occur. This events bring complex chemicals, heat and so on and can make the life cycle start again in the same way it started in the beginning. So I don't think the end of humankind will be the end of life in out system. Quote: Earth is already a relatively old planet in terms of the development of life. Most other planets in the universe are considerably younger in this respect (which is now a theory for why we haven't been able to detect other intelligence - there simply hasn't been enough time for it to evolve on other planets yet). Slooow down Cyan ahahah The theory your are quoting exists (is by Dimitar Sasselov if I remember correctly) but is just an hypothesis with very little support to it. We have discovered around 2100 exoplanets (number of exoplanet confirmed in 2015, but there are other 700 candidates). Around 350 of them are Earth-like planets or supearths. I'll do not take into account exomoons. Of these 350 exoplanets we have calculated the age of less than 10 and every result is around 3.5 Gyr or so. The Earth, in comparison, is 4.5 Gyr old (1 Gyr = 1 billion years). If every one of these planet have earth-like life on it probably there is just some multicellular organism and nothing more and your theory would be true. We have to notice, by the way, that we have the age of less than 10 planets and looking at the results I suppose is really unlikely not to find a planet (or many) older than the Earth. Anyway, no one know at the moment, we can be the oldest or the youngest planet, we don't have enough data to establish that. Quote: And this might sound arrogant: will it matter if there's life on Earth if there are no intelligent, self-aware beings? Who will be able to reflect on it? Not arrogant, maybe just playing the devil's advocate and it's a good thing. We weren't intelligent life forms. We were monkeys. And before being monkey we were unicellular organism. So yes, I think it really matters because some other life form can evolve, become self-aware and reflect on these things. If what you say is true then 4'499'800'000 years of 4'500'000'000 would have no sense; but is because of that gigantic number of years that we are here today, so I think they matter.
    • General Economics Discussion (Last post by Zenchi)
    • Quote: Hey TOTJO! In response to a skype convo in the knights group, I thought I would start a thread on a subject near and dear to me, Economics. To begin, I would like to ask if anyone here has read French economist Thomas Piketty's work 'Capital in the 21st Century?' I would like to start with that. Full disclosure, I have not finished reading it yet (on page 200 something). Dr. Piketty's central thesis is ' that when the rate of return on capital (r) is greater than the rate of economic growth (g) over the long term, the result is concentration of wealth, and this unequal distribution of wealth causes social and economic instability.' Dr Piketty goes on to exhaustively analyze why this seems to be the case as evidenced by centuries of economic data, and goes on to assert that the present state of inequality worldwide 'is not an accident, but rather a feature of capitalism'. This assertion gave me pause. I had never thought that to be the case, until I began reading Piketty's book. What do you guys think? Is inequality built into the workings of modern capitalism? And if so, is this beneficial to society as a whole? If not, how can we as Jedi address this inequality? Knights group huh? Been wondering where you spend all your free time here, lol. Thanks for the suggestion, ill definitely add this book to the pile I have waiting on me...
    • Marijuana and its use (Last post by Sephiroth_deus)
    • I have nothing to add regarding whether one should or should not use marijuana that hasn't been said here and on a million other message boards. However I was wondering about people's experiences with its use and how it effected one's meditations and/or spiritual connectivity (IE does it make this or that meditative exercise easier? Harder? If you feel the Force on a day to day basis does its use inhibit or improve that connection?). My personal understanding and experiences with such things (meditation/spiritual awareness) is extremely limited and I would be interested in reading other people's experiences and insights regarding such things and how they combine with marijuana.
    • Dreams...visions? (Last post by Adder)
    • I've been really into my dreams since a teenager as well, and had a few dooozies. So much potential power in dreaming its spooky. Last night I graduated naval aviation pilot training, and got a shiny red pilot wings badge :woohoo:
    • What do you think comes after death? (Last post by Khaos)
    • I think lots of things come after death. I just don't think said dead individual is around for it in any way natural,or supernatural. Life goes on though. My motto is that of Syrio Forel.
    • Conversations in Chat!! (Last post by OB1Shinobi)
    • Quote: Today's discussion was on good/evil and moral relativism Spoiler: (18:52:42) Lykeios: okay, my topic begins with a question... do you believe in evil? do you believe that it exists? (18:54:01) FAT: I believe that evil has to exist in an equal portion to good. An imbalance of one will reverse their polarities. (18:54:50) Parnerium: I don't think evil exists as an external entity or polluting force in the world (18:54:57) Lykeios: so yes, you do believe in evil. in that case what qualifies as evil? (not EVERYTHING that might qualify but just...a few basic things) (18:55:16) Lykeios: I don't either, Par (18:56:10) Rosalyn_J: oooh thats a good one (18:56:24) FAT: Evil = malicious. Anything done by someone or something with malicious intent is influenced by evil. (18:56:52) Parnerium: "Does style exist?" Well... there are things I see that I would describe as stylish. But it's an adjective that I use to explain a judgement as opposed to something that exists outside of that. (18:56:57) FAT: Cats are evil for chewing the legs off mice and leaving them on your pillow (18:57:11) Rosalyn_J: I think evil begins to exist at the time that we define good (18:57:17) Lykeios: good answer, FAT...I've never heard that definition (18:57:17) Rosalyn_J: See Tao te ching 2 (18:58:10) Lykeios: See that's why I don't believe in a moral "good" either...I think our actions stand for themselves without such judgements, they're just things that we do (18:58:56) FAT: But doing too much good encourages corruption. Every charity has corruption issues. (18:59:03) Lykeios: any judgement of good or evil will be completely subjective based on the person making the judgement (18:59:13) Aco: I would have to agree with Lykeios.. (18:59:19) Rosalyn_J: I think that at some point, in order to live together with a group of people, we have to create a set of guidelines (18:59:28) Rosalyn_J: its like reality (18:59:41) FAT: Mother Theresa did most of her visits to help the poor....but also spread the word of her religion. (18:59:47) Rosalyn_J: subjective, but in some areas agreed upon (19:00:57) Lykeios: well I think there are things that are conducive to living together in a society and things that aren't conducive to living in a society...there are things that should be avoided, but there is no "good" and no "evil" except in our minds (19:01:06) FAT: The Pope doesnt go anywhere ever to do anything unless there is a political message attached to it. Absolute Good corrupts. (19:01:31) Parnerium: Driving on the wrong side of the road isn't conducive to living in society, but I doubt many people would call it "evil" (19:01:55) Lykeios: right. a good example (19:02:59) Rosalyn_J: harm to another person within the group is the only thing that I might consider evil (19:03:17) Rosalyn_J: I was going to broaden it to animals, but we eat them (19:03:36) Parnerium: Tell that to PETA (19:03:40) Lykeios: can an animal do something evil? 0.o (19:03:58) Lykeios: oh wait...I know what you mean now...lmao. nevermind (19:04:30) Lykeios: but that is a good question anyway...can an animal be evil? or do something evil? (19:04:49) Rosalyn_J: hmmm (19:05:04) Rosalyn_J: its not held to the same standards as members of the group (19:05:58) Aco: an animal would have no sense of human subjectivity. (19:05:58) Parnerium: I'd call an animal evil if it plotted to torture it's brother and felt joy in seeing it suffer, but I'll never know if any of those thoughts or emotions are behind the actions of an animal (19:06:21) Rosalyn_J: it has its own standards related to its own group and species (19:06:55) Rosalyn_J: something that we might consider evil were the standards upheld for humans, for animals is quite normal (19:07:22) Rosalyn_J: consider for example how the lion chooses its prey not of the strong, but of the vulnerable (19:07:43) Rosalyn_J: it thins out the heard by killing off the weak and the left behind (19:08:03) Rosalyn_J: but it strengthens the herd as a whole (19:08:16) Rosalyn_J: something like Euginics (19:08:37) Rosalyn_J: or genocide would be on par with that idea (19:08:52) Rosalyn_J: or something like the greeks did (19:08:56) Rosalyn_J: you know (19:08:58) Lykeios: right...but the lion isn't evil for hunting the weak (19:09:12) Rosalyn_J: leaving their baby to die on the mountain (19:09:21) Rosalyn_J: I think they had a place for it (19:09:58) Avalonslight: I would say that evil is a moral, and therefore subjective.... (19:10:59) Rosalyn_J: if everyone decided what was evil in their own heart then someone could decide that murder is not evil (19:11:32) Lykeios: right, exactly. that's why I don't think evil exists...everyone can decide for themselves what is evil and what is not (19:12:13) Avalonslight: thus subjective... (19:12:18) Rosalyn_J: but the committing of murder, the killing of another individual, is it wrong? (19:12:28) Avalonslight: subjective to the moral standards of that particular culture and society (19:13:10) Rosalyn_J: subjective within the bounds of a group. is that truly subjective? (19:13:21) Parnerium: Evil is an adjective, not an entity (19:14:06) Lykeios: is killing wrong? It depends (19:14:22) Lykeios: it depends on the circumstances...on who you're killing...on why you're killing them (19:14:41) Rosalyn_J: Ah so it is case by case (19:14:49) Rosalyn_J: it also depends on perspective (19:14:50) Avalonslight: Certainly Ros... It may be an absolute within that particular group due to that particular group's morals, but in the interactions of that particular group with other groups, it becomes subjective. (19:15:13) Avalonslight: therefore, the moral itself is subjective, and thus whether it is evil or not subjective (19:15:41) Lykeios: yes, it does also depend on perspective (19:16:05) Parnerium: I've got to go for the night guys. It was nice talking with you all (19:16:16) Lykeios: and yes, it is case by case. for the most part though...killing is destructive to society and therefore undesirable (19:16:18) Temple Bot: Parnerium has left the chat. (19:16:18) Lykeios: good night Par (19:17:13) Temple Bot: FAT has left the chat. (19:17:27) Rosalyn_J: so evil and not evil depends not only on the rules set down by the particular group, but also the motivation behind the act? (19:17:37) Rosalyn_J: I think the same can be said for good (19:18:36) Avalonslight: Certainly I would not attempt to condone the acts of say... the US government on Hiroshima or Nagasaki... or even the Holocaust as a whole. I certainly wouldn't justify it or attempt to support it or anything of the sort. But if you stop and put yourself in your shoes at the time... From the perspective of the one, there was no other better way to end what was already a very costly, bloody war. From the perspective of the other (and perhaps terrifyingly so given some current modern political rhetoric), there was the perspective that those individuals were responsible for a great many wrongs and troubles in their society and there needed to be an "cleansing" to help put society back together. By today's "modern standards" we would tend to agree that both acts were "evil"... but. . . well... Again, I'm neither condoning nor justifying either event. (19:20:49) Avalonslight: And yes, I know and recognize that that was an extreme example which global society as a whole recognizes as a moral and ethical atrocity... But at the time, things were quite different on both sides. Or so I would like to think... (19:22:16) Rosalyn_J: I suppose that's why the doctrine is there (19:22:25) Rosalyn_J: because things like this can get messy (19:23:19) Avalonslight: I think that in 45 years, global society is going to judge us as harshly as we judge those of 45 years ago, simply because of changing morals.... (19:23:35) Rosalyn_J: the thing is that we cannot know the mind of a person committing either good or evil (19:23:43) Lykeios: hmmm...good point Ava (19:23:48) Rosalyn_J: oh for cetrtain (19:24:01) Rosalyn_J: consider the conflicts we are engaged in (19:24:22) Avalonslight: and that is why I say "evil" is subjective.. (19:24:30) Rosalyn_J: people are going to see a fuller picture of them because they will be emotionally removed (19:26:39) Avalonslight: I wish I were able to think of a less polarized example off the top of my head, but I'm finding it a bit hard to, simply because any other example would be one that is currently on going today, and we're in the middle of it, rather than removed from it like we can be of the events of the past. (19:27:22) Lykeios: I thought it was a fine example (19:28:29) Avalonslight: I'm not even certain I like to call something "evil" for that same reason. Certainly morally reprehensible, or ethically inappropriate... (19:30:11) Rosalyn_J: I think there is also the matter not only of looking at the person committing the act, but also the person on the recieving end (19:30:23) Rosalyn_J: do we take their view into consideration? (19:30:27) Avalonslight: I suppose another example would be something like.. I dunno... a political ideology. Say socialism. I've got family members who consider socialism to be the devil's work, and by virtue of that, inherently evil. (19:30:32) Lykeios: I don't call things evil anymore at all...unless I'm joking (19:31:05) Avalonslight: I still do... but I don't do it often. (19:31:13) Lykeios: I'm a (19:31:30) Avalonslight: And certainly we ought to, Ros. But it's a good question of whether or not we actually do. (19:32:16) Avalonslight: Well according to these particular family members then Lyk, you're doing the devil's work, unpatriotic, and a danger to the country, adn you should be either imprisoned or thrown out of the country... (19:32:20) Avalonslight: ;) (19:33:08) Rosalyn_J: wow (19:34:14) Avalonslight: I think it might be safe to say something along these lines: Just like the events of history are written by the victors, the morals of society are determined by the powerful. In the end, it is they who determine right and wrong, and good and evil, only with regard to their own personal viewpoint, and without regard to those around them. (19:34:36) Avalonslight: I have some pretty extreme fundamentalist family members. (19:35:37) Lykeios: I'm only a socialist because anarchy seems so unlikely (19:35:43) Lykeios: :P (19:36:40) Avalonslight: Maybe you're the devil incarnate himself then ;) :P (19:36:45) Temple Bot: Proteus has joined the chat. (19:36:49) Lykeios: hahaha. maybe I am (19:36:57) Avalonslight: the Anti-Christ! that's it! I'm speaking with the Anti-Christ!!! (19:37:01) Avalonslight: lmao (19:37:21) Lykeios: perhaps you are ;) (19:37:28) Lykeios: how would you know? (19:37:39) Avalonslight: Hi Pro :) (19:37:50) Rosalyn_J: hey E (19:37:54) Avalonslight: I wouldn't, of course. And it's not like you would tell me if I were so... (19:38:01) Avalonslight stares at Lyk. (19:38:05) Rosalyn_J: we are talking about evil (19:39:20) Lykeios: hehehe. indeed (19:39:49) Lykeios: and hello Pro (19:40:50) Avalonslight: any way that is about as good of an answer i can give that one lyk (19:41:21) Lykeios: :) and a very good answer it was (19:41:31) Rosalyn_J: it was really good (19:42:00) Rosalyn_J: I think a good follow up question (19:42:09) Temple Bot: Proteus has been logged out (Timeout). (19:42:09) Rosalyn_J: knowing that evil is subjective (19:42:36) Rosalyn_J: how do we go about living that truth out? (19:43:50) Avalonslight: the same way our ancestors did before us.... acting the best we can with what we know and the knowledge of our current morals and acting within those current morals. I wouldn't say it's right to second guess what we currently call right or wrong based on the possibility of a future change due to forces we can't possibly begin to predict. (19:44:29) Reacher awakens. (19:44:29) Lykeios: I think it's always right to question what we call right and wrong...I think it's always right to question just about everything (19:44:36) Lykeios: hey Reacher! (19:44:54) Avalonslight: Hey Reacher (19:44:55) Reacher: Are we making a case for moral relativism? (19:45:37) Lykeios: I believe so (19:46:05) Reacher: That is a dangerous proposition. (19:46:44) Lykeios: morality is always relative (19:47:20) Reacher: I disagree, but I don't think in the way you imagine. (19:47:32) Reacher: *you might imagine. (19:47:54) Lykeios: so you're saying there is an objective morality? (19:48:10) Avalonslight: moral relativism and the subjectiveness of the concept of "evil" as a whole (19:48:39) Reacher: In the end it doesn't really matter if there is objective morality or no...the only thing that matters is the morality you're willing to accept. (19:49:47) Avalonslight: I woudl say that that in itself is a level of relativism... (19:50:30) Reacher: is in keeping with the sentiment you wrote of earlier - that the powerful set the conditions for morality. (19:51:05) Reacher: Because if we have a different view of morality, and you're more powerful...well objectivity isn't really a factor, is it? (19:51:32) Avalonslight: No it's not (19:52:14) Avalonslight: I'll brb (19:52:18) Avalonslight: going to reset my chat window.... (19:52:23) Temple Bot: Avalonslight has left the chat. (19:52:25) Temple Bot: Avalonslight has joined the chat. (19:53:25) Reacher: I've definitely seen evil...and if it isn't evil, then the fact that it isn't evil means little to me. Everything in me defines it that way. (19:53:55) Rosalyn_J: go on please (19:54:37) Temple Bot: Avalonslight has been logged out (Timeout). (19:55:30) Temple Bot: Avalonslight has joined the chat. (19:57:33) Reacher: I do think I ascribe to relativity in most things...but I found that I have my limit in that as well. Usually related to the enjoyment of suffering. (19:59:21) Lykeios: There may be a few people I would enjoy seeing suffer... just being honest (20:00:05) Lykeios: but as a general rule I don't enjoy suffering (20:00:11) Reacher: Moral objectivists certainly run the risk of pressing the easy button on morality...but so do total relativists - in terms of consequences. (20:00:29) Rosalyn_J: I'll bbiab (20:02:20) Reacher: So perhaps I'm a moral consequentialist :D (20:03:09) Lykeios: interesting (20:07:22) Lykeios: morals based on the consequences of actions? (20:08:31) Reacher: Not solely... (20:08:52) Reacher: But weighted heavily in that direction. I'm not making a case for ends justifying means. (20:10:48) Lykeios: ahh, right (20:17:57) Reacher: I think I would've been a moral relativist had I not seen some REALLY messed up stuff a few times. Beyond politics and ideology. I when I found something I couldn't abide...I spent a lot of time thinking about it. What I concluded is that it didn't matter if it was objectively or subjectively amoral - I simply couldn't abide it. Perhaps that says more about me than my assessment of it...but there it is. (20:18:16) Reacher: -I (20:19:11) Avalonslight: Yeah I get that (20:19:34) Lykeios: makes sense to me... (20:20:30) Avalonslight: I would have to say that in general, I think those who are current or former military, particularly deployers, have a firmer set of morals than other segments of the population. Simply because they get exposed to so much more than your average individual (20:21:10) Lykeios: that sounds about right to me. I can see that (20:22:26) Reacher: I feel like it made me a bit more sensitive to when I think I see something amoral. 99.9% of everything I see I don't think of as 'evil' but when I do I really can't get it out of my head as anything but. (20:23:20) Temple Bot: Kahn_Xander has joined the chat. (20:23:36) Avalonslight: I'm not sure I would say that moral relativism makes it impossible to see something as 'evil' or 'morally reprehensible' though... Just because you accept that morals can vary, doesn't mean you have to accept the variation from your own. (20:23:58) Temple Bot: Proteus has joined the chat. (20:24:10) Rosalyn_J: I think there was a good point made recently (20:24:22) Rosalyn_J: about the people in power making the rules (20:24:26) Avalonslight: wb Ros (20:24:34) Rosalyn_J: we can shout subjectivity as we like (20:25:04) Rosalyn_J: but its the people in power, not ourselves, that determine the morality of our actions (20:25:19) Rosalyn_J: and I think this goes in spheres (20:25:32) Rosalyn_J: there is a small sphere which you control (20:25:47) Rosalyn_J: mainly those things that you do that don't harm others (20:26:08) Rosalyn_J: if its not against the law, its within your right to decide whether to do it or not (20:26:17) Rosalyn_J: and then you have your familial group (20:26:43) Rosalyn_J: a microcosm of society with views that are held by those in power within that small group (20:26:59) Rosalyn_J: parents, aunts, uncles etc (20:27:11) Rosalyn_J: and then you have your social group (20:27:22) Rosalyn_J: individuals you choose to associate with (20:27:31) Rosalyn_J: whose opinion you value (20:27:41) Rosalyn_J: there are morals there too (20:27:53) Rosalyn_J: lastly you have the "society" (20:28:14) Rosalyn_J: for ease lets just call that "government" (20:28:29) Reacher: Mmm...careful there. (20:28:37) Avalonslight: Very true, but typically you're raised within the morals of that sphere determined by that majority, so your morals end up aligning with those who are in power. It's why it takes so long for morals to change in the first place... why things like like slavery were morally acceptable for so long, or male civil superiority (ex: men having the right to vote but women not), and more recently, the morals related to marriage relationships and the treatment of unborn children/fetuses/whatever you want to call them... (20:28:53) Rosalyn_J: because when you commit acts outside of the bounds of society" you are tried by the government large or small (20:31:36) Temple Bot: Kahn_Xander has been logged out (Timeout). (20:32:28) Temple Bot: Avalonslight has been logged out (Timeout). (20:33:00) Lykeios: I can agree with all that...there are certainly various spheres that we fit into (20:33:34) Temple Bot: Arthur_H. has joined the chat. (20:34:06) Temple Bot: Avalonslight has joined the chat. (20:35:22) Arthur_H.: Are we still talking about morality (20:37:40) Avalonslight: I think that those spheres though are why it's important to recognize that morals are subjective and will vary from sphere to sphere.... Certainly in order for the better good of the one sphere as a whole it is probably best to make rulings off of the prevailing morality of that sphere. But is it morally or even ethically acceptable to force a set moral of another unrelated sphere simply because that sphere has a differing moral regarding that same topic? Who gets to make those judgments... (20:39:04) Temple Bot: Arthur_H. has been logged out (Timeout). (20:40:04) Temple Bot: josephbrotzman19 has joined the chat. (20:40:21) josephbrotzman19: Philosophical discussion? (20:40:49) Rosalyn_J: We are talking about evil and moral relativism (20:41:29) Rosalyn_J: that is a good point Ava (20:42:17) Rosalyn_J: I'm torn (20:42:31) Temple Bot: josephbrotzman19 has been logged out (Timeout). (20:42:49) Rosalyn_J: because I think by us engaging in something completely subjective we may rend the fabric of social cohesion (20:43:02) Rosalyn_J: but I can see where you are coming from (20:43:13) Rosalyn_J: maybe I am just fatalistic (20:43:28) Rosalyn_J: I wonder what would happen if we had no forced moral code? (20:43:47) Reacher: I think it's vitally important to have an agile sense of morality and ethics. Whatever we decide to do, and whatever we believe does not excuse us from our responsibility to think. (20:43:52) Rosalyn_J: if nothing were good or bad would people still be able to live in harmony (20:45:06) Avalonslight: Please understand I am partially playing devil's advocate in my rhetoric here. If only because I think it's important for people to realize that what they determine to be good or wrong is going to be based upon their own raising. And we need to stop and think "is it right for me to apply my morals to this situation?" (20:45:46) Rosalyn_J: I think that it would only be right if it directly affected you (20:46:01) Lykeios: alright guys, I hate to leave in the middle of this wonderful discussion but I've gotta head off to bed so I can get up for work tomorrow (20:46:12) Lykeios: good night everyone! (20:46:17) Reacher: I think we have to consider values, obligations, and consequences. (20:46:20) Reacher: Goodnight! (20:46:22) Rosalyn_J: Lyk would it be ok to post this? (20:46:30) Lykeios: of course, feel free :) (20:46:40) Rosalyn_J: well I might as well ask everyone engaging lol (20:46:51) Reacher: Please do, Ros. (20:46:52) Rosalyn_J: how does everyone feel about having this posted? (20:47:09) Rosalyn_J: we don't have to stop the party (20:47:16) Proteus: i would partake, but i feel like there is a book i should have read before attending this :P (20:47:25) Rosalyn_J: haha (20:49:07) Temple Bot: Lykeios has been logged out (Timeout). (20:49:45) Reacher: Moral values, subjective or no, play a part in ethical decision-making. Our obligations do as well...if I am a teacher, do my morals have any place in the classroom? Even if objective (by my judgment)? What about the obligation I have to the institution I teach at? What if it's a Catholic School and I disagree with their teachings? If I believe in objective morality do I have a leg to stand on in terms of deviating from their curriculum? The last is I hold to my morals and obligations even if the consequences are absolutely terrible? (20:50:04) Reacher: Do consequences have any place in ethical decision-making? (20:51:17) Rosalyn_J: good point (20:51:32) Avalonslight: I think k they have to play a part in that. (20:52:18) Avalonslight: And to be fair, I would say that there are some universal morals that cannot be varied from culture to culture... But perhaps that's idealistic of me. (20:52:43) Reacher: Then in relativist terms, why not just weight entirely upon consequences? (20:52:52) Rosalyn_J: And I wonder if this idea that I only have the right to exercise my morals when something directly affects me, I don't know if that will make me selfish (20:52:58) Rosalyn_J: or blind or what (20:53:26) Rosalyn_J: if there is a starving child in the street, can I give it food? (20:53:35) Temple Bot: josephbrotzman19 has joined the chat. (20:54:52) Avalonslight: I would personally say you're morally obligated to... (20:55:07) Rosalyn_J: why (20:55:09) Avalonslight: But that's just me. (20:55:15) Rosalyn_J: it doesnt affect me (20:55:23) josephbrotzman19: Avalonslight I disagree but that's cool (20:56:09) Reacher:​vulture-little-girl/ (20:56:37) Avalonslight: Because that would fall into my idea of "universal morals"... In this case a moral obligation to preserve an innocent life where one is capable. The child starving may not directly affect you, but it is within your capability to ease it's suffering. To ignore it would be wrong. (20:56:39) Rosalyn_J: I saw that (20:56:56) Rosalyn_J: now see? (20:57:00) Reacher: I think it's an interesting case to explore some of what we're talking about. (20:57:17) Rosalyn_J: why should there not be a law that says there ought to be no starving child? (20:58:05) Avalonslight: I would ask why isn't there one already. (20:58:31) Rosalyn_J: because people have different views on who ought to feed the child (20:58:43) Avalonslight: Why do we sit back and watch when it is well beyond our capacity to ensure that every child is well fed. (20:59:10) Rosalyn_J: consider social welfare programs and the unbelievable idea of the "welfare mother" (20:59:12) Avalonslight: That's a different matter all together though. (20:59:27) Rosalyn_J: how so? (21:01:44) Temple Bot: josephbrotzman19 has been logged out (Timeout). (21:01:57) Avalonslight: Moral right vs active responsibility. No one is going to willingly take active responsibility for something when someone else exists to do so, simply to save themselves the cost of effort and money. That does not mean the moral obligation ceases to exist purely because there is argument over who holds the active responsibility. (21:02:27) Avalonslight: We get very selfish when we can place active responsibility onto someone else, as a general rule. The moral obligation still exists. (21:02:37) Rosalyn_J: but then what not pushing the morals of myself on others (21:02:54) Rosalyn_J: what about if someone else's morals relate to the survival of the fittest (21:03:06) Rosalyn_J: and pulling oneself up by their bootstraps (21:03:13) Rosalyn_J: and not giving handouts this was a great conversation! moral relativism is useful and not just ridiculous and socially destructive when you understand it as being about understanding, motives, and circumstances is it wrong to steal? who is stealing what, and why? are you feeding a staving baby the only way you can? are you stealing the plans to the death star? have you just conned the old lady that likes to feed the ducks out of her life savings? every act has a motive and impulse underneath it, and this is what distinguishes good from evil in the broadest strokes, "evil" is selfishness developed to the point of predatory malevolence this guy is a good example you dont have to use the word "evil" if you dont like, any number of words or phrases might be used instead but it is easy to understand how such a person is a danger to those around him regardless of what culture you place him in, and from that its clear that the word describes a type of thought and behavior that is very real i would add that just because an evil person tells you that they believe they are doing good (like isis murdering and raping their neighbors in the name of allah) does not at all at mean that you as a decent person are obligate to acknowledge that assertion as having any kind of merit whatsoever regarding some things that were said in that conversation: you cant compare us to other animals it would be absurd to expect a giraffe to navigate the internet or file a tax return right? well, so too is it silly to think that we can interact with reality and relate to each other with the simplicity of giraffes we have the most complex society of any earth species and sophisticated cooperation is integral to our survival also, people get confused with morality and assume that it is a top-down imposition of the ruling class or the religious leadership i blame marx for this misunderstanding and caution people not to be too impressed with sociologists oppression certainly exists but thats not all there is to it by any means and maybe not even most of it but all that is another discussion, for now let me just saythat civilization works better with an administrating class than without potentially dangerous as they are, the police are useful, military is useful, government is useful, ect generally, the morality of a culture the deference to transmission of the prominent lessons contained within that cultures historical memory sometimes humans dont learn well or dont interpret well, or hold on to things way beyond their usefulness- well basically human beings have a kooky streak a mile wide- so theres a lot of backward stuff in the world but the essence of morality is "acting in such a way so as to respect my own best interests as well as the best interests of my society in general and those i encounter in particular, to the greatest extent to which this is possible" and while different cultural circumstances, norms, and hierarchies will require or allow for different ways to express that theme, and different cultures place more or less emphasis on the individual vs the collective, morality everywhere is humankinds effort to live out that basic ideal
    • What we can learn from KOTR (Last post by JamesSand)
    • Never played it :) But in support of "video games as legit media" - I quite enjoy the morality of early Fallout games (Help the Sheriff kick the casino boss out of town? Whoops, Sheriff becomes a tyrant! Help the small town fix a powerplant? Whoops! Nearby town invades and wipes them out to steal their power. Lessons in trying to be a "hero" all the time >_< )
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    • ive been wondering about going to another gym to roll, just as a way of checking my own progress against other beginners, but im hesitant because i dont know how people will interpret it lol my coach has convinced me to start doing tournaments so i guess that will be my answer lol i dont have a whole lot of money but im absolutely willing to pay in sweat! (and money too of course, i just have less of it lol) i really love submission grappling; its the most precise (maybe scientific) way to fight and like you said in another thread its just fun to wrestle around with friends lol my intention is to just keep showing up and doing my best
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