The Problem with Black Lives Matter

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22 Jun 2017 16:54 #288311 by ZealotX
Also, there is a VR simulation of 9/11 meant to evoke an emotional response. I'd like to see that for the holocaust, slavery, etc. I don't think there's anything comes close to an experience that is happening to you.

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22 Jun 2017 18:46 #288322 by Trisskar

Arisaig wrote: One thing that should be taught to all children is Jane Elliots Brown Eyes/ Blue Eyes experiment. Not just the video of it, I think the children should experience what it is like to be told you are somehow less than another because of something you cannot change (this includes race, gender, sexuality).


HIGHLY disagree. This woman and this experiment is horrible and to put children through it? The very idea at the suggestion just blows my mind away.

Now I can sit here all day and answer anyones response questioning why I feel this way however all I will say is simply this. We should never use violence physical, mental or even spiritual (this experiment is of the mental and spiritual kind) to teach lessons to anyone. Child or adult.

Anything else I have to say will detract from this thread and are purely personal based.

I am also not in agreement to VR Simulations ect ect.

If you want to teach children and adults to be GOOD. Then lead by example and make changes around you. Not enforce negative dictatorial responses for your (general) assumed "Lessons."
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22 Jun 2017 19:41 #288325 by ZealotX

Arisaig wrote:

ZealotX wrote: I think there should be a class in elementary school that teaches the core concepts of what we want America to be:
Freedom & Choice
Equality
Health & Wellness
Diversity
Anti-Sexism
Anti-Hate
Religious Freedom
Tolerance
Etc.


Very much agreed. One thing that should be taught to all children is Jane Elliots Brown Eyes/ Blue Eyes experiment. Not just the video of it, I think the children should experience what it is like to be told you are somehow less than another because of something you cannot change (this includes race, gender, sexuality).

I've put a video to the experiment below. A bit of a watch, and a bit dated, but definitly worth the watch.


Jane Elliot's Brown Eyes/ Blue Eyes experiment [ Click to expand ]


Not the version I remember watching, but gets the point across. The version I remember watching did this experiment with kids over the course of a couple of days. Was a scary but amazing watch.



THANK YOU FOR SHARING Jane Elliot with me!

That was really thought provoking and I watched another video of her on the Oprah show



Honestly, when I come across white people like her or Time Wise my opinion of them is much higher. It's not because I dislike other white people. It's because their level of honesty and self-reflection allows them understand me and understanding is attractive. This is why I think the conversation is good. Because the more we can communicate in a healthy and respectful way the more we can build an understanding that will have a positive effect on our relationships. And as Jane understands, it's not healthy to pretend that we aren't what we are in terms of race. We try to ignore it and it's basically like trying not to see this person. And the only reason to try to ignore what a person looks like is if there's something wrong with how they look. But yeah... she's awesome.

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22 Jun 2017 19:42 #288326 by Arisaig
Replied by Arisaig on topic The Problem with Black Lives Matter

Trisskar wrote:

Arisaig wrote: One thing that should be taught to all children is Jane Elliots Brown Eyes/ Blue Eyes experiment. Not just the video of it, I think the children should experience what it is like to be told you are somehow less than another because of something you cannot change (this includes race, gender, sexuality).


HIGHLY disagree. This woman and this experiment is horrible and to put children through it? The very idea at the suggestion just blows my mind away.

Now I can sit here all day and answer anyones response questioning why I feel this way however all I will say is simply this. We should never use violence physical, mental or even spiritual (this experiment is of the mental and spiritual kind) to teach lessons to anyone. Child or adult.

Anything else I have to say will detract from this thread and are purely personal based.

I am also not in agreement to VR Simulations ect ect.

If you want to teach children and adults to be GOOD. Then lead by example and make changes around you. Not enforce negative dictatorial responses for your (general) assumed "Lessons."


I do agree. What this woman did was horrid. But the horrible attocities that gave birth to movements such as BLM are the result of not understanding struggle or what it is to be put down just because of something you cannot change.

This would not have to be taught long term either. Teach a generation and a lesson will never die. Is it extreme? Yes. But to combat racism, which holds back our species as a whole over a thing as dumb as the colour of someone's skin, one must teach a lasting lesson.

To be able to step into someone else's shoes, to be put from the perceived "better race" to the "lower race" because of something you can't change, allows one to understand just the level of hate (self hate or otherwise) it must involve to be a racist.

My mother taught me this lesson from a very young age. I remember it well. I still see race (how could you not?), but it is little more than something that marks someone as who they are, not as less or more than their fellow man.

I can understand why you'd disagree. It is a drastic thing I propose. But if racism doesn't end naturally then I think it should be taught so that we may see the end of a frankly childish worldview.

His blade defends the helpless;
His Shield shelters the forsaken;
His justice undoes the wicked;


Above is just three lines of the Knight's code. We can spend a lifetime defending the helpless and sheltering the forsaken. We can also spend the rest of our lives undoing the wicked. But a Jedi also teaches.

His image brings peace;
His code breaks the darkness;
His legend brings light.


Above is what we do as teachers. Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he's fed for life. The same can be said for this. Teach a generation to see past fickle things such as skin colour or ethnicity, and you change the world.

I know this will never be taught in school to the level I envision. It saddens me that racism will probably live on until this world ends. So I teach this lesson to myself and my future children so that they may teach theirs, and so on and so forth. Perhaps this mindset of compassion will become more commonplace one day.

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22 Jun 2017 19:43 #288327 by Senan
Replied by Senan on topic The Problem with Black Lives Matter
There needs to be a distinction made between "learning" something and "experiencing" something. The Blue Eyes/Brown Eyes demonstration is meant to make people experience discrimination rather than just learn about it second hand. Right or wrong is debatable, but the reaction to this experience will be more visceral than simply reading about racism or other discrimination in a book.

I won't belittle BLM or try to compare the experience that black people have with law enforcement to my privileged upbringing, but the closest equivalency I have experienced is living with cancer. I don't feel discriminated against, but I can definitely tell you there is a difference between understanding cancer as a disease intellectually and actually experiencing it. Sometimes you have to actually go through the experience to really understand what is happening. My brother can learn about cancer, but he hasn't experienced it, so there will always be some disconnect. Just as I am not black, I will never know what it is to actually experience the institutional racism in our U.S. society. I can learn about it and try to change the culture, but I can never truly say I "get it". Instead, I try to acknowledge that the BLM movement raises legitimate concerns that need to be addressed by all of us, not just the black community.

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22 Jun 2017 19:54 #288328 by ZealotX

Trisskar wrote:

Arisaig wrote: One thing that should be taught to all children is Jane Elliots Brown Eyes/ Blue Eyes experiment. Not just the video of it, I think the children should experience what it is like to be told you are somehow less than another because of something you cannot change (this includes race, gender, sexuality).


HIGHLY disagree. This woman and this experiment is horrible and to put children through it? The very idea at the suggestion just blows my mind away.

Now I can sit here all day and answer anyones response questioning why I feel this way however all I will say is simply this. We should never use violence physical, mental or even spiritual (this experiment is of the mental and spiritual kind) to teach lessons to anyone. Child or adult.

Anything else I have to say will detract from this thread and are purely personal based.

I am also not in agreement to VR Simulations ect ect.

If you want to teach children and adults to be GOOD. Then lead by example and make changes around you. Not enforce negative dictatorial responses for your (general) assumed "Lessons."


Black children and white children are already being put through "it" except what they're being put through is not an experiment.

The only thing Jane changed was the physical basis on which to judge. She changed it (from skin color) to eye color.

It is natural to see someone being mistreated as an abhorrent thing. But her experiment is temporary. Children learn racism and when they grow, their attitudes are not some temporary experiment. They are permanent and have permanent consequences.

Some parents spank their children based on the idea that to inflict temporary pain will train their child to avoid a lifetime of hurt. One of the reactions to her experiment was that it was harsh. People didn't want to witness that. And she was simply mean, rude, and treated people differently. She didn't hurt anyone. There were no lynchings. There was no cross burnings. No one had their foot cut off. No one was whipped so that their skin came off and left permanent scar tissue.

Some people think that because these things no longer occur or don't occur to the extent they once did, that racism is over. No, it's not. The fundamental psychology that allows people to be treated this way is still with us. And it is this fundamental psychology that is at the heart of racism and that's what her experiment deals with.

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22 Jun 2017 19:56 #288329 by Trisskar
This isn't a matter of experience. In my opinion.

There is plenty of history both new and old that tells of great atrocity made against the white race. Including slavery that was sometimes worse than how blacks were treated (As history tells)

Yet that is not experience enough in the eyes of others.

I can sit here and tell you that I have experienced Racism. Being in an International High school and it's natural segregation of the students races. Being looked at like I was an alien for daring to even attempt to sit at There table (ended up sitting alone after that)

But that experience will never be enough in the eyes of other races. Not in there opinion.

My daughter has been bullied by blacks because she is white.....I have had to wipe her tears and force her out the door when she was fearful to go because of the treatment of the other students.

But that isn't the right kind of experience in other races eyes. We are told that it is "Not the same." and that we can "Never Understand"

So who exactly has the right to decide which experience is more important to have than the other?

Who has that right and that authority?

Simply put. No one.

Nor are we meant to experience other peoples experiences. That should never be our goal. We are each unique and beautiful people because of these experiences both the good and the bad.

No. What we need is the courage to lead our local communities towards Positive action and results. Not bullying experiences into others because you feel justified to share your pain.
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22 Jun 2017 20:05 #288331 by rrhodes67
I'm not sure I agree. I've seen where politicians in some cities were forced to live with a disability for a day. Does it give them the full experience. No, but it does open their eyes to some of the barriers that are faced. I used the same idea for a speech in college. I removed someone's ability to use their hands They then had to carry their books, operate the doors, etc. The speech was on the importance of the Americans with Disabilities Act. You can tell people what it's like all the time, but for many people it goes in one ear and out the other, unless they are allowed to see it first hand. It's kind of like that "walk a mile in their shoes" thing.
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22 Jun 2017 20:08 #288332 by ZealotX
@Senan

That was a brilliant response. Thank you.


Cancer can definitely kill you if it goes untreated. BLM is like an x-ray, saying "HEY!! THERE'S CANCER HERE!" Does the x-ray cure cancer? No. It's not the x-ray's cancer. It's our (society) cancer.

A lot of sick people don't like to go to the doctor. Some would rather die than get treatment. Some wait so long that treatment is more difficult; so difficult that it may not be worth the effort.

This too is similar to racism. It is a cancer in our society and when it's not happening to you it's easy to ignore. I watched someone die of stage IV lung cancer. She knew she was going to die and she felt powerless to stop it. Black people also feel powerless to stop it because racism is a result of the "other" group having the power.

For me, there is a lot of "Jedi and Sith" (speaking of the franchise canon) in how this works because The Sith gain power for their own sake and if you're in chains then that's your problem. My attraction to the Jedi is because they spend time, through reflection/meditation/etc., working to rid themselves and become immune to the corruption that comes with all the power they have.

If a person understands power... they have to understand corruption. And if they understand both and can choose from the beginning... this is a person who is conscious. Everyone else is asleep, being changed and evolving based on all of the power they have, and not noticing.

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22 Jun 2017 20:25 #288336 by Senan
Replied by Senan on topic The Problem with Black Lives Matter

Trisskar wrote: I can sit here and tell you that I have experienced Racism. Being in an International High school and it's natural segregation of the students races. Being looked at like I was an alien for daring to even attempt to sit at There table (ended up sitting alone after that)

This is exactly the experience I am speaking of. You can't "know" it until it has happened to you.

Trisskar wrote: But that experience will never be enough in the eyes of other races. Not in there opinion.

My daughter has been bullied by blacks because she is white.....I have had to wipe her tears and force her out the door when she was fearful to go because of the treatment of the other students.

But that isn't the right kind of experience in other races eyes. We are told that it is "Not the same." and that we can "Never Understand"

So who exactly has the right to decide which experience is more important to have than the other?

Who has that right and that authority?

Simply put. No one.

I disagree. Each individual has the right to that authority, they are just not allowed to have it. White people, mostly men, have enjoyed lording that authority over others since the very beginning of U.S. history. Just as you have the right to feel discriminated against because of your experience, black people have the right to feel discriminated against based on their experience, but white people have had the voice and the authority to both prevent discrimination against themselves and promote it against others.

The key is that we are able to recognize that no one person or race or sex or gender is more important than another, but they are all important. No act of discrimination should go ignored, which means every instance of it should be addressed the same. Right now, in the U.S., that is not the case.

Trisskar wrote: Nor are we meant to experience other peoples experiences. That should never be our goal. We are each unique and beautiful people because of these experiences both the good and the bad.

It absolutely should be our goal. It is called empathy. By trying to identify with and understand the experiences of others, we learn to show compassion. Even if we can't directly experience what others do, we should do our best to try. If you ignore or marginalize the experiences of others, you are saying that only your experience is important. This selfishness how discrimination starts in the first place.

Trisskar wrote: No. What we need is the courage to lead our local communities towards Positive action and results. Not bullying experiences into others because you feel justified to share your pain.

Fully agree with the course of action, but to pretend like the individual experiences of white people are equal to the collective experience of institutional racism against black people in the U.S. is indefensible. White people have systematically "bullied" black and brown (and asian and...) people for hundreds of years in the U.S. and elsewhere around the world. Whether you or I personally had a hand in it or have been bullied by black people now as a result is not justification for denying there is a serious problem here.

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