The Problem with Black Lives Matter

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07 Jun 2017 15:37 #286873 by ZealotX
I appreciate your response and the opportunity to further discuss this important issue. Thank you listening with an open mind. Even if we ultimately disagree I want you to know that this was and is a good conversation and just the fact that we're able to have it is progress. So thank you for being a part of that and I don't want you to take anything I say as any sort of hostility or anything negative aimed at you. I hold you in high regard.

OB1Shinobi: is it possible that you mean "ingrained racism"?

No, I literally mean people who aren't consciously aware of their own racist tendencies and who would not identify themselves as racists. Racism isn't a feeling or something that is always easily quantified. You may subconsciously treat one person better than another and justify it consciously with other things that have nothing to do with race. But if we could take every occurrence and measure the variables and come up with analytics of that person's actions we would, in some cases, find that a person's behavior changes when a black person is involved. For example, you can have a boss that consistently passes on giving a black employee a promotion. The first justification might be reasonable and professional. The second time they're passed over it might be because they like this other person better. The third time it might be some random memory of something they did that they didn't like. Meanwhile, the people being promoted may be less professional, less liked around to office, less professional, and make more mistakes. The boss may not even realize that there is subtle component in his decision making that is based on prejudice; based on prior thinking or ideas that have nothing to do with this person but rather their race.

OB1Shinobi: being uncomfortable with people who are different and that you are unfamiliar with is not quite the same thing as being a racist.


Why are they different? What makes them different? Does race really make someone different? If I said I was uncomfortable around midgets, what would you think about me? Girls and boys are more different than 2 people of the same gender from different "races". Keep in mind that race is an invented construct. We weren't created at different times or different planets. The only difference is literally pigmentation. But is a blond uncomfortable around a brunette? Is a person with brown eyes (which can be white or black) uncomfortable around someone with blue eyes? Do you get what I'm saying? Why is it the only difference that seems to matter is a difference that was invented and is incredibly superficial. So what does this mean? In my opinion, it means that we MAGNIFY the difference when it comes to color and that magnification is caused by racism. Now maybe a white person is equally uncomfortable around Mexicans. However, they may not be uncomfortable with a white person from Spain, England, Holland, Russia, etc. They may never even ask or contemplate where that "other white person" comes from or where their genes came from. I was born in the US, not Africa. I watch the same shows, the same movies, have the same interests, etc. I should have more in common with white Americans than white people from South Africa and yet white people might feel more comfortable around Elon Musk than me. I love Elon Musk, btw. Just do. But how does one explain this racial discomfort if it is not racism? This also goes back to the point I made that you can be manipulated by real racists even if you're not racist yourself. Because the cultural ideas about black people (stereotypes) may get started by a racist but picked up by others who don't realize they're accepting a fundamentally racist idea. Sometimes, it is the stigmas and stereotypes that affect us more than overt racism. Most racism is not overt because there are consequences. I had white friends in school because I went to a mostly white school in my early elementary years. I had zero issues. I wasn't uncomfortable around my friends. I also had white friends in middle school and high school because I saw them as being the same as me. I only become less comfortable when I have reason to believe a person is racist because of what they may be thinking or saying behind my back. And honestly, that's what keeps a lot of black people at a distance. Those that kind of grow up with us? They're fine because we know them and they know us. A part of knowing us is knowing that we're not scary monsters who want to eat their children. Fear is what makes people uncomfortable. And people usually fear what they don't know. I have a solution for that. Explore. Get to know. Gain understanding. Then the next generation can be taught that we're all the same. Babies come out this way. We're the ones that teach them otherwise.

OB1Shinobi:i dont know your context for this statement so could you tell me what the word "racism" means to you?
is racism something that only white people are capable of, in your opinion?

www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/membe...tter?start=30#286771

OB1Shinobi: if this is in response to the "all lives matter" point then fair enough, especially since the group actually has the word "black" in its name, however

1) they want white people to help support the movement,
2) when you're building a group whose essential premise is justified by the assertion that racism is a problem, you undermine yourself by being racially exclusive. it suggests to observers that you actually are just fine with racism, so long as its only affecting some other race.

Why does having "black" in the name a problem? If I had a penny for every time a NON-RACIST police officer used the word "black" to describe a suspect, I'd have more money than Bill Gates. No one sees that as a problem. And when talking about a criminal it's no problem for the News to identify the suspect as "black". I think it's essential that black is in the name because that identifies who this problem is happening to. It's not happening to white people. You might say "yes it is! We have statistics too!" I repeat. It's not happening to white people.

The thing that's not happening to white people is being targeting based on race or ethnicity. What's not happening to white people are racially motivated beatings or shootings. If a racist cop pulls me over he's a racist cop. If the same cop pulls you over he's just a cop. That's the difference. He's not going to treat you the same way he treats me. The reason why this is essential to understand is because you cannot deal with racism in the police culture by ignoring the racial component. You have to begin screening racism out of police culture. You have to have consequences for using racially charged language that indicates how you think and process information. BLM isn't saying that cops are perfect other than this issue we are complaining about. BLM has no obligation to say "and this is how they treat the mentally challenged" even though that is an issue.

The more issues you put on the table the less will get done about any of them. And their effect will be diluted. Do you think we all have time to march for every issue in the world? Of course not. PETA is for the ethical treatment of animals, not people. So even if you disagree with their "priorities" and you want them to be about ethical treatment of all species, including human, there's nothing wrong with specializing in one cause. It seems that the only time people are not allowed to represent their own cause that hits closest to their home is when they're black. Nope. Not allowed to speak up for yourselves. You must speak up for ALL people. If you speak for yourselves we'll suddenly speak for all people just to speak over you but we won't really do anything about what we're protesting or push for any change that affects ALL lives.

The name of the organization isn't Black People who believe Black Lives Matter. It's JUST Black Lives Matter. Plenty of white people can agree that "Black Lives Matter". If you can agree then how are you not included? If PETA sends me a email asking for a signature or donation I don't have to be a Polar bear or an elephant to want to save polar bears and elephants. So when they say "please help us save polar bears" it would be kind of an asshole move on my part to angrily respond "WHAT ABOUT BLACK BEARS?!" No one's stopping anyone else from taking up the cause of Black Bears, is there? So why pit one against the other as if you're not allowed to fight for polar bears if you don't include black bears or brown bears?? BLM never said "please kill white people instead of us". BLM never made a case for when police violence is okay.

If I repost something about saving polar bears it's probably got something to do with Global Warming. That's not the same thing as me saying "Hey Black Bears. F#$k You guys. Seriously. And Brown Bears? Yeah, you guys can F off too." No one's saying this. So why, again, does it seem like black people are the only ones that aren't allowed to complain about something happening to them. RACISM. Do black people have to say "White Lives Matter" and hope some white organization will return the favor? When Christian Children's fund made all those commercials about helping starving people in Africa were they wrong because it's name wasn't inclusive of adults? Are there no starving adults in Africa? What about them? What about the elderly? And what about India or China? No one's starving in those continents? Doesn't criticizing Christian Children's fund sound stupid?

Were the people saying Blue Lives Matter seriously protesting Gang Members who shoot at the police? Seriously? No, they were only attacking BLM which has a history of shooting ZERO police officers. ALL LIVES MATTER and BLUE LIVES MATTER were a protest of the protesters. Can you look me in the eye and tell me that ALL LIVES MATTER was aimed at the Police??? If we're being honest you have to admit that it was aimed at BLM. So the purpose of these things should be clear. They were ONLY attacks. It was never about All lives mattering (even though it is syntactically and theoretically correct) or BLUE lives mattering because NONE of these people confronted the people who are actually guilty of endangering what they were supposedly standing for. Not to mention, DEATH ROW LIVES MATTER, OBAMACARE LIVES MATTER, TALIBAN LIVES MATTER, MUSLIM EXTREMISTS LIVES MATTER, right? Aren't the part of "ALL LIVES"????? But when same people on the news who support ALL LIVES MATTER almost wet themselves at the "beauty" of American bombs launching against their targets... what happened to ALL LIVES then? It's a BS argument and you're not supposed to realize that.

When I was in school I looked at myself and I didn't see a black person. I literally rebelled against the label because my skin is brown, not black. "Black" to me, seemed more like an exaggeration meant to denigrate everyone that looked like me. Later I fully embraced the label because it means more than a color and at the end of the day we don't change things by complaints, protests, etc. We change things by accepting reality. The reality is that there is a lot of racism in police culture because of socio-economic factors as well as white culture repeating it and proliferating it. Just do a google search for "black face" or "lynching". We're not trying to make this stuff up. We're simply trying to communicate what's been happening to us for many years which is why we, as a social group, do not trust the police which in turn makes their jobs harder and makes them less effective against crime. We're not pro-crime but if the police are criminals too and racism is institutionalized in our Criminal Justice system, then our reaction is a natural one. It's not about who's black and who isn't. We need to destroy racism. And if human beings don't want to help then okay, but why then attack the movement that's raising awareness and working for change? Unless you're against that change?
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07 Jun 2017 17:29 #286891 by ZealotX

ZealotX wrote: 7. Black people have had a different history with the police than whites. Period. There are whites that hate the police too but but the reason of race is unique to black people.


i agree with this as a matter of historical fact. yes police have targeted blacks more than other races. im with you.
but one of my complaints with the BLM movement is that they dont recognize the degree to which police brutality in its modern form, is to a great degree an issue of the culture being "police vs everyone else", and not merely "racist white police vs innocent black people"



OB1Shinobi, you're an intelligent person. What if I listed all of my criticisms about the Occupy Wall Street movement and said "For these reasons it should not exist". Occupy made a lot of mistakes. Is there a problem with the distribution of wealth in the US? ABSOLUTELY. In many ways I believe this problem is bigger than racism by 10 times or more. But what were the demands of the movement? Do you remember? Did you ever know? And ultimately, what changed? What did Occupy accomplish? What if I told you that my criticisms against Occupy Wall Street were more important than the mission of Occupy Wall Street? What if I went out and publicly criticized it over and over. Would I be helping the cause? Or helping people to see that the movement is irrelevant because I think so? I'm okay with people having criticisms about BLM. The problem was that the criticisms of BLM were often simply attacks used to discredit and destroy the movement by people who didn't want it to exist. The people shouting All Lives Matter weren't trying to change the name of the organization. There was a comment form on their website where that could have been done. I used their comment form myself even. When someone wants to offer constructive criticism there is a way to do it. And you know the kind of criticism it is based on how it's given. These weren't just criticisms. There was a backlash against what they were protesting. One of the criticisms that I heard a lot about BLM was that "black people kill each other more than anyone else". That criticism has nothing to do with a name or someone not feeling included. That's someone saying that black people have a problem that whites do not and if they fix their own problem then maybe we'll listen or maybe we'll care. It is in effect, a justification to say that "black lives don't matter to me". That's what people were implying in their rhetoric. And that's why "Black Lives Matter" is the phrase that is needed because the reality is that to many people they do NOT matter and that's why not only do the police kill us, but that's why society ALLOWS THEM TO.

"Police Kill Too Many People—White and Black"


I agree with this, however, keep in mind that black people are much less of the population and no other group is targeted like we are. It's okay to suppress our votes. It's okay to admit that the war on drugs was largely about minorities. It's okay to stop and frisk us. And if you research Michael Wood you'll find out why he's my favorite (retired) police officer. He exposed a lot of institutional racism in policing and he's deadly honest about it. But the bottom line is that this is NOT THE SAME ISSUE. Trying to make it the same issue is missing the point.

maybe this is true but can you prove it? do you have some evidence other than your intuition?
mostly what i see these days is people going from the military to police force after they get back from the wars... then acting towards citizens with the same mindset that they had towards the iraqis: that of an occupying force.


I hate the way police are starting to get more military equipment. I don't want to live in a police state. But, there's no organization that I know of that is actively fighting this issue. If there was I would support it with donations. But the fact that it doesn't exist (to my knowledge) doesn't mean I can take another organization and criticize them for not being for my other issue. They are focused on their issue. Why shouldn't I hinder them unless I have a problem with their issue? We can't all focus on the same issue no more than we can all get the same college degree and work in the same field.

Proving it is the problem. We struggle to even prove that a white cop killing an unarmed black man has committed murder. Most of the time they get off scott free just like George Zimmerman who later proved that he was definitely the one who was more dangerous. Why? Because how do you get the proof? Who's responsible for getting the the proof? Who conducts investigations? You want the cops to police the cops? What about prosecutors? Judges? They're all friends. They don't want to go after each other. We could have a cop caught red handed (like Mark Furhman) and later he'll become a contributor for Fox News. But use your common sense. KKK members don't hang people so much now but often back in the day the Sheriff was a member of the klan. They had to wear hoods to protect their identities, not just from the police, but from the citizens knowing that they were police. These days, the only job in America that lets you beat, detain, fine, hasstle, lock up, take away their right to vote, and force into a condition that will burden their families, make them unhirable to many jobs, and affect their entire socio-economic future, is the job of Police Officer. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that job will attract a lot of racists.

the same can be said for almost all cases of whites being killed by police... but not only does BLM ignore the full scope of police brutality, to make it even worse they seem to only want to riot and set things on fire when the cops kill someone who was asking for it- yes, asking for it.


Again... BLM is not about "police brutality". That is a misunderstanding and mischaracterization. BLM was always about the RACISM that is the source of racially motivated police brutality against black people. So yes, "police brutality" is an issue. But you can't force a different issue on someone else just because you don't like theirs. Again, I don't have to save black bears at the same time I'm saving polar bears. If black bears are endangered its not the same issue endangering polar bears. The solution for polar bears is not the same solution for black bears. Does that make sense?

No one who is unarmed is "really" asking for it. Furthermore, black people aren't in positions to report on the amount of whites getting killed by police. I'm sorry this happens too. I think PTSD does affect a lot of cops and they are more likely to shoot, in general, and even if they target more black people that doesn't mean whites wont get shot too. But no one is saying cops don't shoot whites. And ignoring it means that someone is bringing it to our attention and we don't care. The only reason it is brought to the attention of BLM and its supporters is to COUNTER the message and diminish what is happening to black people. I personally know and witnessed a case in which my local police department was forced to arrest a young black man who I knew and they did a fantastic job even though he was literally telling them to shoot him. Why? Because he has mental health issues and doesn't take his medicine and he's so influenced by a history of distrust of police and police killing young black men that now its part of his reaction. "You want to kill me? Then do it." Sometimes it's called defiance. That doesn't mean the person should be shot. Most police shoot out of fear or they just say they do in order to get away with it. In the same situations one cop shoots another cop in the same situation is somehow magically able to disarm the suspect. And when there are 2-5 cops on one person there's not excuse when they are the ones with the weapons and the training. The problem is that they're trained to shoot if there is ANY threat. That's why Texas police officer pulled his gun out on kids at a swimming party. But always, people who are against BLM hide behind cases in which they believe killing the person was the right move. Why? Because that's what they would have done. Of course you may not even see where someone in police custody reacts in a dangerous why because THEY believe their life is at stake. They're the only ones not allowed to be afraid and not allowed to act out of fear. And some have proved even when we're perfectly calm and we say "I have a gun because I'm licensed to carry"... still get shot. A lot of black people run from the police because they literally fear for their lives. This is not something most whites understand.

well this could be true but again, any evidence besides rumor and intuition?

www.snopes.com/the-origins-of-policing-in-the-united-states/
Snopes fact checked this and couldn't say it was false.

also. From the Encyclopedia of US Labor and Working-class history

"All law enforcement officials were obligated to arrest anyone even suspected of being a runaway slave, often on very little evidence."

I also have the testimony of someone I grew up with who was homeless and he said sometimes the cops would beat him. In no way am I saying "ALL COPS ARE RACIST". That's not the point. The point is that it happens enough to be a huge problem for us. I have had a run in or two myself that I feel could have been racial but I don't jump to conclusions just because a situation doesn't seem fair. But hell, if we could prove it, I guess that would be the answer, right? Evidence makes it sound so simple and it's not. Especially when you're dealing with people who handle evidence professionally, its not going to be easy to prove your case; especially when they can present "alternative facts" or use their partner as testimony that you're lying.

www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-komorn/5-...stand_b_5229900.html

This is just one example as to why it society supports the cops over the suspects. Imagine a time before video and dash cams. You think they lied less? White weren't simply the ones who arrested us. They were the ones who controlled the media and the narrative. If a white woman says she was raped by a black man it often led to a white riot and lynchings. One of the most famous cases of this was Black Wall Street in Tulsa. You should really read about this.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot

Nothing at any BLM rally, march, or other form of protest comes anywhere close to this. And under no circumstances are those perptrating these acts of violence or destruction representatives of BLM. That's the problem of having PUBLIC events where any member of the public can participate. Even if you asked on a form or application, no one's going to tick the box that says "Yes, I do intend on starting a riot or destroying property". ALL protests run the risk of being hijacked depending on where they happen.

im on the side that says "all bigotry is bad no matter who it is coming from and no matter who it is directed towards. people should be judged as individuals not by their group associations"



That's not a third side. That's the BLM side. Because no representative of BLM has ever said bigotry is fine so long as its not us. And you cannot make that assumption on their behalf without at least polling a cross section of their organizers. The problem is that racists make criticisms against BLM that makes this sound like they're saying something wrong. People twist their words or put words in their mouths because BLM doesn't have a media channel where they can respond to every criticism and control their own narrative. They can't do that. They don't have the resources to litigate the correct philosophy driving BLM against all of the opponents who have time and money to invest hours of TV programming into denouncing and rebranding BLM as a terrorist organization.

because we have a legal system that is predicated on the rule that we dont murder each other. i understand that the BLM position is that cops are murdering blacks, but once you decide that violence is a legitimate tool in your tool kit, youve transitioned into being a terrorist organization.
neither of us want the state to decide that it has the justification to declare martial law and thats the kindof outcome youre going to get.


Do I want violence? Of course not. But if the entity, hear me out, that is the proponent of violence or war against your people... if that entity that is the threat, IS the legal entity... then you will always have violent AND non-violent protests and you will always have a narrative that is controlled by the legal system to call those people terrorists while to the people they're fighting for, they may be "freedom fighters". Case in point, who were the "terrorists" that led the way to the American Revolution? Did the colonies create the United States without any violence? Did they not have a legal system that stood in opposition to what they wanted to change? What could that legal system have done to keep them happy? Is the non-violent perpetual existence of the legal entity the absolute goal? Or is progress the goal?
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07 Jun 2017 20:17 #286906 by ZealotX

Kobos wrote:

ZealotX wrote: You asked where does the teaching/reforming/healing/etc. begin? Depending on where YOU are, YOU, by virtue of being different, change racism and the form it takes. Black people cannot solve this problem because it is self replicated in white culture. Let me give you a real example of something I personally experienced this spring.


A little white kid said something about my fiance's son being black and "white people are better".

I could have reacted but I held my peace. The white kid said this, not just in front of him, but in front of me and in front of his father. We were all within 5 feet of this. His father said nothing; offered nothing in the way of any apology, nor did I expect one because clearly that's most likely where he got it from. And if there was any correction, we didn't see it and it was after the fact and probably had more to do with saying it in front of us.

I would love for my children (my fiance's son is only 12) to grow up in a world without this perverse way of thinking but nothing I could say would have changed that kid's mind because that was parental authority being passed down. It was part of that child's culture just as much as the English language. So what am I supposed to do? What can I do? I can only tell you my story in hopes that your ears aren't deaf and hope that you have greater influence over kids like that than I, "the inferior one", could have. It has to come from white people.

Absolutely not. But I cannot prevent them from forming negative feelings if they have consistently bad interactions with them. Fortunately mine don't and they have all had/have white friends who I assume don't treat them as inferior.

The solution could only be the influence of black people getting the attention of white people so that white people use their influence to get the attention of the white people who are programmed not to listen to us and who don't care about us, to those to whom our lives truly do not matter, and influence them towards change or be a light for their children to show them that not all white people think they are superior to other humans and that what you own, or your socio-economic status, doesn't make you superior. I probably make more than that kid's father, but does it matter? At all? Absolutely not. Before BLM most black-white interactions were superficial because they did not deal with racial issues. So even if you think a black person is your friend, if they're not cool enough with you to talk about race, it's possible that they don't trust you that far based on a history of whites who didn't want to talk about it because they didn't care enough to or just wish the topic would just go away even though the effects of it are alive and well.

We say black lives matter only because, to some, we know they don't. Even if you believe saying ALL LIVES MATTER accomplishes the same thing; it doesn't. Because the fact that it was created to COUNTER the statement that black lives matter, means that it is designed to ignore, specifically, black lives as a racial group being actively and systematically oppressed. ALL LIVES are not being oppressed based on race. White men in suits are not stopped and frisked. There are no establishments that deny whites entry or service because you wear clothes thought to be part of white culture. No one shoots you because you're wearing a hoodie or playing loud music. ALL LIVES aren't faced with the same issues for the same reasons. And the statistics for UNARMED police shootings is evidence of this.

The Solutions of BLM are mostly related to policing. They have successfully pushed for policy changes and as a result more police are using body cams and there's more community oversight. These policy changes benefit white people too. So what it's called Black Lives Matter? What's the difference between us saying it and having to fill out "Black" or "African American" on application forms and documents? We don't know how that's being used. What we do know is when we give our children names that sound more "white" than "black" they have an easier time getting jobs. It's been proven. What's the solution? Again... influence. The best thing I can do is raise the level of consciousness around me and try to make other black people better - whom I have greater influence over, and hope that something I say in the presence of whites is able to cause one of you to say something different, do something different, to lessen the effect or hinder the reproduction of racism.



I wanted to take the time to hank you for the well thought out answer. I also appreciate the flattery, it does however, suck that I am considered different though as I'm simply being empathetic towards another human experience, but it simply came from doing something you mentioned in another post. I had a deep long conversation with my roommate (he was obviously black and also from the South Side of Chicago) in college about race. Interestingly enough it came from a discussion on a vibe I picked up from some gentlemen who came over to get green. I could tell they were unsavory to say the least, for perspective I spent a good amount of time selling (I do not anymore but everyone was young and only green, no other drugs), that means exposure to a different set of principles to judge upon. Criminals shouldn't really judge criminals but it becomes a safety issue when money and other stuff is involved. My assumption was right; but we had a deep conversation about what caused my predisposition in that situation. He decided my concern was founded in logic, but he also shared some experiences and ways of looking at racism I didn't really think of from my perspective along the way. "It's not the overt S$3T that get's to me, it's the subtle stuff that bothers me, like someone not meeting a gaze or someone assuming my course of action without relation." That was his statement was an eye opener. The assumption of socio-economic status by race is an example.

I applaud your temperance in the scenario above, I would have had a serious talk with my child about any statement like that (It was how I was raised). I run into stuff like this more than I would like to say, particularly, working in a suburban high-school setting. However, though I'm not the parent, so beyond letting them know they don't understand the experience and that maybe they should look a little open minded, or that they are just being stupid my influence on them is limited. However, influence I have to use none the less. I agree though that the solution does in a way start with me but in general it starts with all of us. We each have a role to play here and each of our actions should and need share a general attachment to one another. I can and have reached to those around me about racism it is the minimum I can do. I agree that the movement cannot police the whole of itself it is not possible in an movement/organization after certain size. However, word of mouth particularly now with social media holds a new power, so any uncultivated action by those in leadership (tend to be positive statements) and those not (the less positive ones that are very popularly thrown around) can be devistating or incredibly up lifting. With this in mind I think we need to look at why the most shocking and ignorant statements tend to sway public opinion and how to make that shift; that and education both in general and on different cultural perspective are where we can start in my opinion.

This dialogue here, though I am sure frustrating and painful to some, is incredibly important to keep going while it maintains its course of civil dialog with presentation of at least path ways to solutions. I appreciate the peacefulness of this thread and hope it continues; the more perspectives we each strive to understand the better. just never try to understand a perspective from your perspective, objectivity is key or you will become judgmental of given situation (history major in college.....) Thank you everyone for your contributions please keep it peaceful. Adder thanks for your contribution I think it helps to see an outside the US (it also, makes us define , think and consider the simpler parts of the dialog in the US (we don't tend to do this much in the US on issues that are difficult), when most the time we are arguing finer points with fervent passion) perspective on this too. This will not be without effect on emotions but the community will be better served by temperance here than flaring tempers (steps off soap box, takes soap box, burns soap box, realizes he's an a-hole for standing on it, then wonders how he got a wood soap box these days in the first place.)

In Peace and Respect,
Tim


It does kind of suck that you're different, but in the same way that whites have different experiences from black people, you've had experiences with black people that many other whites haven't had. This is often taken for granted. I think that MLK's dream involved all of our children playing together because he knew that those children would grow up with a new and different perspective and having spent that time together, they would have a deeper understanding and stronger connection. I don't blame white people (generally speaking) for being manipulated by the political spin that is designed to attack BLM and cause them to misunderstand what it's about. Part of understanding each other has to be understanding there is good and bad on both sides.

During the height of BLM I was on a couple of different conference calls where different people were trying to organize protests and figure out "what we should do". I say this in all seriousness. The majority of black people have no idea how to solve these problems so there is a element of desperation. When you're desperate any chick at the bar starts looking like a supermodel after awhile. The easiest ideas take the least thought and the least coordination and are the least complex. My solution to them is always economic because there is a certain level of responsibility that black people have even when it comes to racism. It's true that we often have to be twice as good as the competition in order to make it. And because a minority of us will always be exceptional there will always be success stories even at the height of racism. But it is the lack of economic power that means the most exceptional are not creating jobs for the least. Too many of our people are selling drugs (although its mostly weed) just to survive because of a lack of economic opportunity. Economic solutions are not simple because it is extremely difficult for black people in general to get money from white institutions. But I digress. The people in my community who have the ideas are usually not the people who have time or the people who have money. It is only when these 3 things connect that something positive comes as a result. Because I was involved in a positive movement I was more vocal about what I believed were the right solutions. But instead of our two communities reacting to each other's negativity we need to react to each other's positivity. But being on these phone calls, there were always individuals who talked about fighting and they always seemed to be trying to hijack the call away from the organizers. It got to the point where myself and a friend of mine who was heavily involved in economic solutions more from an relationship with Africa perspective, we were calling these people out and nullifying their potential influence. My friend was even of the belief that they weren't real; that they had been kind of sent to disrupt. Had it not been a conference call and instead been a live protest I can see how organizers could easily be overpowered or have their platform hijacked. Even Bernie Sanders (in a move I didn't agree with) had his podium hijacked by those two women representing BLM. He wasn't threatened by it so he allowed it to happen, but still he took heat for it.

Unlike my friend, I do believe those people were real. They were hurt, angry, and frustrated. When the twin towers fell in 2011 people were hurt, angry, and frustrated and they wanted to fight. What people generally ignore is WHY. They don't see everyone being targeted and killed, even unarmed, by the state they pay taxes to. They only see themselves being victimized by racists cops who they're not even allowed to fight back against. Hurt. Angry. Frustrated. I am thankful that I am nearly immune to emotionalism. Because I understand them, even though I cannot agree with all of their actions. One thing is true, we can't become the very thing we're fighting against. That's when that thing has won. People who are hurt, angry, and frustrated, don't mind the irrationality of it all that turns them into terrorists. They don't need you or I to understand their reasons or motivations. They simply feel like you haven't listened to peaceful talk so maybe you'll hear this___(insert wrong thing here)___. Usually, that wrong thing is to do to them what they do to you in an effort to show them how it feels. I think that is essentially what Terrorism is and why it wont end as long as all we do is fight it (and especially by fighting it in a way that kills innocent civilians).

When human beings don't listen we fight. And it's sad. I don't want to fight. Most of us don't want to fight. We just want to be heard because we feel like we're being fought. It's like a war that Congress never agreed to and therefore has plausible deniability and no responsibility. There are so many black people that feel like there is already a war against them you would be amazed. And then you'd be stuck in the Matrix wondering whether or not to believe us or whether we are all insane. It's one of the reasons why we're careful who we even tell our history to because you never know if that person is Neo or if that person is an agent Smith. And again... that's why these conversations are unusual. Your black friend was a true friend because he allowed your relationship to reach beyond that surface level of which we're typically all cordial and friendly with each other regardless of race. I think the truth is that we know that racism creates sides. One side is right and the other is wrong and what's right to one could be wrong to the other and "do I really want to know if my 'friend' isn't really on my side?" Maybe I'd rather not risk that and not even have that conversation. Maybe my friend might think I was asking them to choose sides since that's how a lot of white people take it.

That's interesting to me. When race is brought up it is amazing how many people get offended who claim not to be racists; just like the young man in the video in the original post. We hear it often. "I'm not a racist BUT..." Why? Why do they get offended? This is an assumption but I'm going to put it out there. The ideas they express don't sound like they've had a private conversation with a black person. So why is their first conversation in the public sphere? But they're not racists though. They either can't see the issue from the black perspective or they can't see the issue from a completely unbiased perspective because they can't help but see themselves as "white" in comparison to an issue that is "black". And for some reason this is different from feminism or gay rights where you don't have to be a female or a homosexual to support their basic human rights or legal status. It seems to some of us like it is more permissible to be homosexual than it is to be black. And the gay rights movement was probably the most perfect most successful protest movement in American history. But because anyone from any socio-economic class could be homosexual it also had a lot of advantages. The one advantage of being black is a lot of white women secretly suspect you're packing. Even with the advantages and the near flawless execution there was plenty of opposition to the Gay Rights movement. So I guess my point is that there was almost no possibility that no matter what they did, BLM was inevitably going to get attacked.

Solutions, solutions. The solution is having the conversation so that we can keep coming up with solutions and so we can keep understanding the problem and our place in it. It is my belief that BLM was never perfect and never above making mistakes but as long as we see BLM as a negative thing our opinion is going to be manipulated and controlled by racists who don't care about black lives and don't want to change anything that would help black people. This doesn't sound right and doesn't make sense in this day and age since we all know that, by now, we should be past racism. However, we're not. Too many of us are afraid of the conversation because we're either afraid to be thought of as racists or afraid to uncover racists in the people we want to like and have relationships with. But we have to get over these fears and figure out how we can help each other.
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07 Jun 2017 22:19 #286921 by ren

ZealotX wrote:

ren wrote: My wife is black my kids are tanned, I have every reason in the world to want an end to BLM, they are a threat to my family's continued existence. BLM's "me me me but not you" approach only serves to create enemies they once did not have.


unfortunately, this is proof of what I was saying about ALL LIVES MATTER being a skillful political attack against the movement.

BLM is not in any way a threat to you or your family. You've been lied to by those who were already enemies of BLM before the organization ever existed.


I don't make projections on the basis of opinions, sooo... no.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.

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07 Jun 2017 22:34 - 07 Jun 2017 22:58 #286922 by OB1Shinobi
@ZealotX

ive read your posts and i appreciate them.. im also reviewing the links you shared.
i might not be able to respond tonight because there is a lot of content..

i think we're going to have a very meaningful conversation.

Ive begun my reply but i dont have time to finish it. Iim not goingto give a partial response to the things that youve said. in the mean time, please take a gander at the following, as they all have relevance to specific things youve mentioned here, and offer some insight on my views


www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-...ou-can-see-as-jedi-s


www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-...ization?limitstart=0


www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-...ica-duh?limitstart=0


I found myself sympathetic to much of what the young man said. Im posting this particularly in regards to the question of violence..


People are complicated.
Last edit: 07 Jun 2017 22:58 by OB1Shinobi.
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08 Jun 2017 01:05 - 08 Jun 2017 01:31 #286948 by Kobos

ZealotX wrote: But it is the lack of economic power that means the most exceptional are not creating jobs for the least. Too many of our people are selling drugs (although its mostly weed) just to survive because of a lack of economic opportunity. Economic solutions are not simple because it is extremely difficult for black people in general to get money from white institutions. But I digress. The people in my community who have the ideas are usually not the people who have time or the people who have money. It is only when these 3 things connect that something positive comes as a result. Because I was involved in a positive movement I was more vocal about what I believed were the right solutions. But instead of our two communities reacting to each other's negativity we need to react to each other's positivity. But being on these phone calls, there were always individuals who talked about fighting and they always seemed to be trying to hijack the call away from the organizers. It got to the point where myself and a friend of mine who was heavily involved in economic solutions more from an relationship with Africa perspective, we were calling these people out and nullifying their potential influence. My friend was even of the belief that they weren't real; that they had been kind of sent to disrupt. Had it not been a conference call and instead been a live protest I can see how organizers could easily be overpowered or have their platform hijacked. Even Bernie Sanders (in a move I didn't agree with) had his podium hijacked by those two women representing BLM. He wasn't threatened by it so he allowed it to happen, but still he took heat for it.

When human beings don't listen we fight. And it's sad. I don't want to fight. Most of us don't want to fight. We just want to be heard because we feel like we're being fought. It's like a war that Congress never agreed to and therefore has plausible deniability and no responsibility. There are so many black people that feel like there is already a war against them you would be amazed. And then you'd be stuck in the Matrix wondering whether or not to believe us or whether we are all insane. It's one of the reasons why we're careful who we even tell our history to because you never know if that person is Neo or if that person is an agent Smith. And again... that's why these conversations are unusual. Your black friend was a true friend because he allowed your relationship to reach beyond that surface level of which we're typically all cordial and friendly with each other regardless of race. I think the truth is that we know that racism creates sides. One side is right and the other is wrong and what's right to one could be wrong to the other and "do I really want to know if my 'friend' isn't really on my side?" Maybe I'd rather not risk that and not even have that conversation. Maybe my friend might think I was asking them to choose sides since that's how a lot of white people take it.

That's interesting to me. When race is brought up it is amazing how many people get offended who claim not to be racists; just like the young man in the video in the original post. We hear it often. "I'm not a racist BUT..."


Solutions, solutions. The solution is having the conversation so that we can keep coming up with solutions and so we can keep understanding the problem and our place in it. It is my belief that BLM was never perfect and never above making mistakes but as long as we see BLM as a negative thing our opinion is going to be manipulated and controlled by racists who don't care about black lives and don't want to change anything that would help black people. This doesn't sound right and doesn't make sense in this day and age since we all know that, by now, we should be past racism. However, we're not. Too many of us are afraid of the conversation because we're either afraid to be thought of as racists or afraid to uncover racists in the people we want to like and have relationships with. But we have to get over these fears and figure out how we can help each other.

ZealotX wrote:
This is something I am all to aware of and it's sad because it also reinforces certain things that people use to drive the wedge (even though we all do it). Example, had I got popped when I was that guy, the assumption would be that I was just selling weed as a kid on the side. That's part right, I had a job but I also had tuition and well an addiction I was feeding. I digress, had my roommate gotten picked up (partners) I can almost guarantee there would have been a way more significant investigation. This is all assumptions but mid-central IL is pretty solid on doing stuff like that as is society here in the US in general.

I believe those people also had that exact reasoning for fighting. I saw it in the protests originally in Ferguson. I think it would have been significantly different if the ACPs and other reactions had not occurred. I agree in some minds it creates sides.
The Neo and Agent Smith is a very good metaphor for the situation from my perspective. To it I have a new metaphorical response so excuse if its badly worried. You compare the white people to Neo when we have this conversation. But, what if I told you white people approaching this from my angle are simply like Morpheus, we are always looking to believe that there is a Neo and crew out there whom will initiate change and we are willing to put aside ourselves and fight for you. Ironically many of the whites that I would say haven't had this direct interaction or an understanding are just the crew. Those with open minds will still help they have been freed. But, they in some way must be shown they believe instead of just knowing it. End Matrix Metaphor........It sounded better in my head let me know if it doesn't make sense. Point is there are more open minds than are willing to say it, some stick to defenses and point to data. But most are willing to listen if you are willing to speak. Though I don't understand that fear as I haven't faced it on race nor do i fully grasp your perspective.

I agree on the economic reasoning you were looking to approach and step one is defiantly to find a way to position it to where it is equal (though it may take time). This again though falls all the way through to education. Sorry, I push this hard but again where I work i see a lot more kids whom are more misguided come from higher income. I know that given the same resources the city schooling particularly here in Chicago would make a huge difference in equalizing it, as would investment in individual neighborhoods that is not including gentrification.

If anyone has to say "I'm not "insert thing" thats a sign that well they probably are or really aren't thinking about their statements

"But we have to get over these fears and figure out how we can help each other."

This my friend is a most beautiful statement that doesn't show a side to be picked but a choice to be made by us all as the human race. I hope we get it right soon but I know eventually we will.

I messed up the quote system sorry..........

In peace,
Tim


What has to come ? Will my heart grow numb ?
How will I save the world ? By using my mind like a gun
Seems a better weapon, 'cause everybody got heat
I know I carry mine, since the last time I got beat
MF DOOM Books of War

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
TB:Nakis
Knight of the Conclave
Last edit: 08 Jun 2017 01:31 by Kobos. Reason: I didnt type my part

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08 Jun 2017 01:21 #286949 by Rosalyn J
I'd love to spend some time commenting on this thread. My mind has been otherwise occuppied, but I appreciate that this discussion is happening

Pax Per Ministerium
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08 Jun 2017 01:32 #286956 by Kobos

Kobos wrote:

ZealotX wrote: But it is the lack of economic power that means the most exceptional are not creating jobs for the least. Too many of our people are selling drugs (although its mostly weed) just to survive because of a lack of economic opportunity. Economic solutions are not simple because it is extremely difficult for black people in general to get money from white institutions. But I digress. The people in my community who have the ideas are usually not the people who have time or the people who have money. It is only when these 3 things connect that something positive comes as a result. Because I was involved in a positive movement I was more vocal about what I believed were the right solutions. But instead of our two communities reacting to each other's negativity we need to react to each other's positivity. But being on these phone calls, there were always individuals who talked about fighting and they always seemed to be trying to hijack the call away from the organizers. It got to the point where myself and a friend of mine who was heavily involved in economic solutions more from an relationship with Africa perspective, we were calling these people out and nullifying their potential influence. My friend was even of the belief that they weren't real; that they had been kind of sent to disrupt. Had it not been a conference call and instead been a live protest I can see how organizers could easily be overpowered or have their platform hijacked. Even Bernie Sanders (in a move I didn't agree with) had his podium hijacked by those two women representing BLM. He wasn't threatened by it so he allowed it to happen, but still he took heat for it.

When human beings don't listen we fight. And it's sad. I don't want to fight. Most of us don't want to fight. We just want to be heard because we feel like we're being fought. It's like a war that Congress never agreed to and therefore has plausible deniability and no responsibility. There are so many black people that feel like there is already a war against them you would be amazed. And then you'd be stuck in the Matrix wondering whether or not to believe us or whether we are all insane. It's one of the reasons why we're careful who we even tell our history to because you never know if that person is Neo or if that person is an agent Smith. And again... that's why these conversations are unusual. Your black friend was a true friend because he allowed your relationship to reach beyond that surface level of which we're typically all cordial and friendly with each other regardless of race. I think the truth is that we know that racism creates sides. One side is right and the other is wrong and what's right to one could be wrong to the other and "do I really want to know if my 'friend' isn't really on my side?" Maybe I'd rather not risk that and not even have that conversation. Maybe my friend might think I was asking them to choose sides since that's how a lot of white people take it.

That's interesting to me. When race is brought up it is amazing how many people get offended who claim not to be racists; just like the young man in the video in the original post. We hear it often. "I'm not a racist BUT..."


Solutions, solutions. The solution is having the conversation so that we can keep coming up with solutions and so we can keep understanding the problem and our place in it. It is my belief that BLM was never perfect and never above making mistakes but as long as we see BLM as a negative thing our opinion is going to be manipulated and controlled by racists who don't care about black lives and don't want to change anything that would help black people. This doesn't sound right and doesn't make sense in this day and age since we all know that, by now, we should be past racism. However, we're not. Too many of us are afraid of the conversation because we're either afraid to be thought of as racists or afraid to uncover racists in the people we want to like and have relationships with. But we have to get over these fears and figure out how we can help each other.


This is something I am all to aware of and it's sad because it also reinforces certain things that people use to drive the wedge (even though we all do it). Example, had I got popped when I was that guy, the assumption would be that I was just selling weed as a kid on the side. That's part right, I had a job but I also had tuition and well an addiction I was feeding. I digress, had my roommate gotten picked up (partners) I can almost guarantee there would have been a way more significant investigation. This is all assumptions but mid-central IL is pretty solid on doing stuff like that as is society here in the US in general.

I believe those people also had that exact reasoning for fighting. I saw it in the protests originally in Ferguson. I think it would have been significantly different if the ACPs and other reactions had not occurred. I agree in some minds it creates sides.
The Neo and Agent Smith is a very good metaphor for the situation from my perspective. To it I have a new metaphorical response so excuse if its badly worried. You compare the white people to Neo when we have this conversation. But, what if I told you white people approaching this from my angle are simply like Morpheus, we are always looking to believe that there is a Neo and crew out there whom will initiate change and we are willing to put aside ourselves and fight for you. Ironically many of the whites that I would say haven't had this direct interaction or an understanding are just the crew. Those with open minds will still help they have been freed. But, they in some way must be shown they believe instead of just knowing it. End Matrix Metaphor........It sounded better in my head let me know if it doesn't make sense. Point is there are more open minds than are willing to say it, some stick to defenses and point to data. But most are willing to listen if you are willing to speak. Though I don't understand that fear as I haven't faced it on race nor do i fully grasp your perspective.

I agree on the economic reasoning you were looking to approach and step one is defiantly to find a way to position it to where it is equal (though it may take time). This again though falls all the way through to education. Sorry, I push this hard but again where I work i see a lot more kids whom are more misguided come from higher income. I know that given the same resources the city schooling particularly here in Chicago would make a huge difference in equalizing it, as would investment in individual neighborhoods that is not including gentrification.

If anyone has to say "I'm not "insert thing" thats a sign that well they probably are or really aren't thinking about their statements

"But we have to get over these fears and figure out how we can help each other."

This my friend is a most beautiful statement that doesn't show a side to be picked but a choice to be made by us all as the human race. I hope we get it right soon but I know eventually we will.

I messed up the quote system sorry..........

In peace,
Tim


What has to come ? Will my heart grow numb ?
How will I save the world ? By using my mind like a gun
Seems a better weapon, 'cause everybody got heat
I know I carry mine, since the last time I got beat
MF DOOM Books of War

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
TB:Nakis
Knight of the Conclave

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09 Jun 2017 11:26 - 09 Jun 2017 11:30 #287101 by ZealotX

OB1Shinobi wrote: @ZealotX

ive read your posts and i appreciate them.. im also reviewing the links you shared.
i might not be able to respond tonight because there is a lot of content..

i think we're going to have a very meaningful conversation.

Ive begun my reply but i dont have time to finish it. Iim not goingto give a partial response to the things that youve said. in the mean time, please take a gander at the following, as they all have relevance to specific things youve mentioned here, and offer some insight on my views


www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-...ou-can-see-as-jedi-s


www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-...ization?limitstart=0


www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-...ica-duh?limitstart=0


I found myself sympathetic to much of what the young man said. Im posting this particularly in regards to the question of violence..



I just want you to know that I followed your links and watched the videos. The Daily Show video is probably the best on the subject. I feel the same way. I defend BLM because it is one organization that is allowed to react to the racism that disproportionately targets minorities. HOWEVER, again, that doesn't mean that there isn't an escalation in terms of brutality and armament that affects us all. Just because a racist cop treats black people like runaway slaves doesn't mean he's automatically going to be a gentleman to everyone else. Sometimes A-hole is an A-hole is an A-hole. And just like there are different parts of a computer, we need different organizations putting pressure on the police. And I can tell you that it does work. Even if they say it isn't because of BLM, my local police department has done more to communicate with the community. I actually attended one of the meetings and was even interviewed for TV. BLM fighting the problem is a good thing. We need other organizations to do the same. If your bigger concern is the Army/PTSD aspect of the issue there's NOTHING wrong with that. Use that to put pressure of the police. Attacking BLM only lessens that pressure and gives the police a reason not to change.

You can support BLM to whatever degree you choose but champion your own cause. BLM never set out to be the only organization putting pressure on the police. That pressure is a direct result of the pain BLM feels, not just because of the deaths because we're used to each other dying, but because of the RACISM and injustice that not just leads to these deaths, but creates a system of white supremacy that allows people to get away with it. Black person kills another black person, they'll probably get caught and they'll probably go to jail. My god-brother got shot and killed just recently by another black person; some young kid. But when a white cop shoots a black kid... a kid even... there's always a bigger chance that cop will not suffer any legal consequence. And that sends a message too to other cops. "it's okay." "Go ahead and pull the trigger." "Kill that nigger." At some point the lack of consequence makes killing us "inconsequential". And if it is such then the lives of black people really don't matter to this system of government. And that's their concern.

But if your main concern is different and you were attacking the army/PTSD angle and someone attacked you and claimed you were ignoring the racism angle, that person would be wrong, especially if you've never said anything against BLM. But not only would that person be wrong for attacking you, we could reasonably assume they're doing so, not on the behalf or behest of BLM, but because they are otherwise motivated to try and stop you. Maybe they are being paid by the NRA? Who knows? There are too many guns in the US. They don't make us safer. They just make us more scared of each other because too many people can "push a button" and you're dead. And the people most motivated to protect the status quo in that case would be the gun manufacturers who make a profit as a result. So I ask again. Who benefits from attacking BLM? These attacks against BLM are, in essence, an attack on the legitimacy of racism being a problem in police culture. Who benefits from that?
Last edit: 09 Jun 2017 11:30 by ZealotX.
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09 Jun 2017 12:05 #287102 by ZealotX

Kobos wrote:
This is something I am all to aware of and it's sad because it also reinforces certain things that people use to drive the wedge (even though we all do it). Example, had I got popped when I was that guy, the assumption would be that I was just selling weed as a kid on the side. That's part right, I had a job but I also had tuition and well an addiction I was feeding. I digress, had my roommate gotten picked up (partners) I can almost guarantee there would have been a way more significant investigation. This is all assumptions but mid-central IL is pretty solid on doing stuff like that as is society here in the US in general.


Bill Maher did the same thing. Studies have shown whites sell weed just like black people do. The problem is just that black people are made into the face of it while whites are seen as more the victims. Now that heroin addiction is really hitting the white community, NOW there's more interest in tackling the problem. As much as my younger self didn't want to think there was institutional racism, when I learned about how they prosecuted crack differently from cocaine it was impossible to ignore. Literally, a different form of the same drug and the penalties were different. They didn't care that crack cocaine ravaged the black community. And as long as they could blame it on criminals and lowlifes mainstream society could easily turn a blind eye. They could just shake their heads and judge the morality of the people that used drugs as if we were somehow different than them.

Kobos wrote: The Neo and Agent Smith is a very good metaphor for the situation from my perspective. To it I have a new metaphorical response so excuse if its badly worried. You compare the white people to Neo when we have this conversation. But, what if I told you white people approaching this from my angle are simply like Morpheus, we are always looking to believe that there is a Neo and crew out there whom will initiate change and we are willing to put aside ourselves and fight for you. Ironically many of the whites that I would say haven't had this direct interaction or an understanding are just the crew. Those with open minds will still help they have been freed. But, they in some way must be shown they believe instead of just knowing it. End Matrix Metaphor........It sounded better in my head let me know if it doesn't make sense. Point is there are more open minds than are willing to say it, some stick to defenses and point to data. But most are willing to listen if you are willing to speak. Though I don't understand that fear as I haven't faced it on race nor do i fully grasp your perspective.


Well the reason I wouldn't say that conscious whites are like Morpheus is because Morpheus was "born free". He was born knowing the full truth of humanity and its relation to the machines. Neo is the one who had a choice to make. Neo is the one who could choose to wake up or stay sleep. But Neo is the one who is most effective in fighting the machines. Neo can fight them in a way that Morpheus can't. Neo can even COMMAND the machines... Neo... "much like a teacher" (wink, wink)... is a programmer.

Neo essentially got his own crew and they looked for more people they could wake up. I am happy to see communities of humans, white and black, who are CONSCIOUS or "woke". They see what their government is doing. They see the larger needs of the planet. They see injustice without partisanship and justifications. There is a growing movement of progressives who don't always get it right but their heart is in the right place and what more can we possibly ask for than that? Not to say that everyone on this site is "woke" but I am happy to be among all of you and I do consider this site to be a concentration of consciousness and enlightenment and I'm proud of everyone here. There is hope for the future because of our ideals and our understanding. One of the most powerful things I ever heard was a story about a black man who made friends with many members of the KKK. His solution wasn't hate and it wasn't fighting. It was love. He really wanted to know how could someone hate him if they didn't even know him. His love and friendship changed their minds.
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