Is Trumps Boarder Wall Antithetical To Jedi Doctrine?

30 Jul 2020 13:04 #353551 by ZealotX

I don't know if your girlfriend is a bitch, and I have no idea what "karen"-like behaviour is.

@James (and anyone who doesn't know what a "Karen" is)

Throughout this racial history of America racist white men have been a direct threat. However... Sometimes the larger threat is the white woman. Why? Because the white woman is often the one who makes false claims about black men that other white men then respond to. She lies for different reasons. If caught in an interracial sexual or emotional relationship she may lie and say she was raped to avoid mistreatment by family, friends, or husband. Sometimes it's pure racism in the form of "I'm better than you." or "This is my territory, you shouldn't be here."

Whatever the case, this white woman may say things and may even go out of her way to say things, in order to get a response from other whites, to invoke the racism of other whites, against the target of her choosing. She knows what the potential responses might be. She doesn't care. This is what we have dubbed the "Karen". Karen is a white woman who uses fear, anger, hostility, and may even go out of her way to challenge the very presence of a person of color.

If you are a black kid mowing someone's lawn for money, a black man watching birds, Karen may call the police and give the police the impression that she doesn't feel safe. In a small fraction of cases the Karen will actually tell the target what she intends to do and what the police might do when they arrive to "protect and serve" her interests. Karen is the one you have to watch out for because Karen doesn't necessarily mind if you don't survive the encounter. So in some cases (that we've seen video of) we see the Karen fake crying or fake some kind of emotional fit in order to manipulate the police to use them as a weapon against the target.

Karen doesn't have to be seen doing this. A black man could be playing with a toy gun at a Walmart and not even know that someone has called the police. But Karen, for all the fear she claims, often confronts and tries to intimidate black people, using her white privilege as "white power". That, is a Karen, and there are countless video exposing this type of person.

At the moment you're a wounded dog, a barb (that probably cost your opponent nothing) has you crawling to totjo, bloody and frustrated, looking for support.

You're confused. I used the situation with this person to make a point in a discussion. Any read of being wounded is unfortunately, just your imagination. In fact my gf didn't want to talk to me for a little while after because she felt like I was reprimanding her unfairly. Experiences are teachable moments. I used my past experiences in debates, some very heated, some very disrespectful, in order to show her the fruitlessness of having that kind of dialogue with someone over the internet because they can say anything they want about you because they know they will likely never see you in person and have to back up their intimidation with actual physical strength. It is therefore a waste of time. And this kind of internet thug behavior can also including highly provocative word pictures, appearing to capture what that person thinks you are or thinks you're doing like the picture painted above "crawling, blood and frustrated". I sincerely hope you reconsider this provocative approach in the future. Whether it is your opinion or not, doesn't mean you need to share it or share it in a way that would provoke an emotional response. And then when some people react to that provocation the person who provoked them often tries to hide the cause and bring attention, instead, to the provoked reaction. Definitely, not good.

The best way to have a positive result (ie - the result you want) when communicating with someone is to have all the balls, courts, racquets, and less metaphorically, supporters in your pocket before you even have the discussion - then they either survive by agreeing with you, or are eliminated by opposing you.

It sounds more like you're talking about how to go to war rather than how to seek peace. There is something called diplomacy. There is no need to be combative. When you make someone defensive then the argument escalates and their resistance grows to match your offense. Who is right or wrong starts to matter less and less as the argument becomes less about the subject and more about the people having the interaction and which of them is more "powerful" (or more ego driven). This is often an illusion of fear. People are afraid to look weak so they exaggerate their response by being more intimidating and threatening. It's the small dog that barks the most. The stronger you are the less likely you will be effected by that small dog who is identifying its weaknesses through its barking. The stronger you are the easier, in my opinion, it is to have uncomfortable conversations because you need to avoid being provoked by the other side. You can call them out when they get out of line. But you only want to highlight bad behavior, not encourage it.

I know I have talked about debating before like a light saber duel. I was even writing about it and how to do it effectively. However, I don't want people to get the impression that's it's about YOU winning the duel. It should never be about the people "fighting". It should be a battle of ideas. You want the best idea to win even if that idea is the one coming out of the opponents mouth. So when it is about opposing ideas then rules matter and unconventional ways of "winning", may make you "feel" like a winner but you only win when both sides agree on the best idea; not when one side gives up because they hate you or are tired or drained by the conversation.

see how you used the term "karen"-like behaviour? That's a jerk thing to say, but it's okay at the moment, so you're getting on board with it.

until it's not okay to be jerks to black people in your crappy country, people will do it, and they don't even need to be racist, they just need to be jerks.

I don't know where you think I live but my country is not crappy and no one is saying jerks don't exist. Of course calling someone's country crappy is a bit of a jerk move as well. So now I have to mentally decide if you're defending what you think to be a "fellow jerk". I don't have to play that game though. Rather, you seem to be ignorant to the existence of a certain kind of behavior and minimizing it to jerk status, due to the number of people who are jerks and the relative insignificance of their petty and inconvenient trifles, I cannot demote racists and their allies to this common slight. Karen-like behavior is obviously NOT a jerk thing to say if you know what a "Karen" is. If I was choosing the name randomly, sure. Then it would take on a different connotation. However "Becky" and "Karen" are both names given specific meaning in the context in which they are used. And I'm trying to help you and others understand that context so that you have a better understanding of racism and what black people are talking about so that you can be part of the solution and not part of the problem.
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30 Jul 2020 13:43 #353552 by ZealotX

Wescli Wardest wrote:
Finding a solution by having civil conversation between people grounded in reality is not terribly difficult. Add just one of any number of the insane BS artist out there to the equation and the whole thing turns into a sh!t show that never resolves.

The issue including the BS Artist is that the BS Artist think they are the ones grounded in reality and are having civil conversations. They project their inadequacies and fallacies on others; are blind to their own double standards; reject any well-formed opposition as some kind of “ism” or “ist” (who knows what they’ll dream up next) And have pretty much been brain washed to hate or despise the place they live, the people they live with and can, and will, find fault and flaws with every and any aspect of anything presented them.

The real issue facing all societies is that everything dies. No person or group of people can ever make a utopian society. Because we are flawed as individuals it is impossible for us to create something perfect. And no matter how good something is, there will always be those that want to tear it down and destroy it. The BS Artist believe that to achieve their unachievable goals they have to tear down what is there and start over. They have no idea how to start over or what it takes to have a high functioning society. ...

Due to your somewhat vague use of "BS Artist" there are a number of directions you could be going. It seems very open to interpretation which also allows it to be potentially be taken the wrong way. I prefer you just say exactly what you mean and who you mean to discuss.

When you talk about people trying to build a utopian society I honestly do not know who you are talking about? Are you talking about black people arguing on behalf of equality and justice? Because then why fight wars for independence? Why start democracies? Why create a constitution and bill of rights? Why do anything? Why not just accept your feudal lord and your life as a peon on his land?

Trying to make something better should never be confused for trying to reach the "perfect" and therefore unobtainable. This confusion should always be turned around on the person from which it comes. Because what other societal issues do they believe are acceptable in light of what they believe to be the positives? Does that mean women should accept being treated like property and having any voting rights? Or is this a man talking who never had to worry about being thusly impacted and told all the things that he couldn't do because he was born with the wrong genitalia... or the wrong skin color.

It is much easier to view society as "Acceptable" when you are part of the most acceptable group in that society. I'm trying not to use the word "privilege" but it applies here.

The real issue facing all societies is not death. It is LIFE. It is HOW we live. That creates quality of life that affects everyone. When it comes to how much time I spend thinking about death vs life I spend 99.99% of my life thinking about life and... LIVING. So that's where my concern is.

No one, to my knowledge, is talking about starting over in any significant way. It is more like evolution. The body tries to adapt to changes in environment. Some parts of the body may become obsolete or irrelevant. Some parts may have depreciated uses. For certain "acceptable" members of society it "works" so if it aint broken, why fix it? But again, it's easy to say this from that particular vantage point because that group isn't the one experiencing the dysfunction. Along with training society has also been given copious amounts of TIME. Time was given to white society to adapt to seeing black people as equal citizens; judging not by color but by content of character. For many, the time was simply spent getting accustomed to new parameters of racism and the "new Jim Crow". It wasn't spent seeing the different wrongs and making corrections.

And now a new generation that is tired of waiting is saying "since you haven't done enough to stop this we're going to make it less comfortable". And if certain institutions cannot change because of their culture then you have take some money away from them and redirect it into establishing other emergency services so that mental health and other professionals can respond to 911 calls and actually assist the police in doing things they are not trained to do. And so they can treat people with the kind of care and support those people and those situations need. People who do not take the time to even understand what is being demanded are typically those who are simply more comfortable with the status quo. And perhaps a sizable number of them are perfectly happy with people of color not feeling safe in the United States of America. And according, not a new Utopian constitution, but to the present day constitution that was penned by the founding fathers, who provided for the use of amendments to make a "more perfect union"... all races, religions, ethnicities, etc. should all have the same expectation of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. All should have the same justice, the same mercy, the same freedom of speech, the same right to protect ones self from the government, etc. If we aren't there yet then we are not even at the goal of what the United States was meant to be yet.

So forget utopia... we just want the promise of America not to be a lie. And it doesn't have to be if we work together to continue to build on its old foundations.
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30 Jul 2020 14:09 #353554 by ZealotX

Kobos wrote: Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Full Stop. You're saying people who want to be jerk-bags will find and justify a reason to be a jerk to others? Well, I never.

On the real. This is key thank you James. Though I won't deny that there are race problems here in the US, ones that actually need solving. I will absolutely say it does us no good what so ever to point to on group who is using race as the reasoning behind their justification (Ironically this comes from both sides of the current situation). Then allowing negative action by using the simplest to reach justification.

An interesting question for us here in the US, is having lower expectations on behavior based on race, racist (like really racist)?
I would say so, and it seems to be and have been the case for quite some time. I could go into a few stories about the education system if need be but they are just what I have seen personally.

All I am saying is let's actually work on things instead of tearing things apart and then saying, "well, it's because XYZ and it's justified".

Right now in the US, 29 people ave died due directly from this behavior(not counting the national uptick in violent crimes), how many more have to die?

Just think about it,
Much Love, Respect and Peace,

I think people often underestimate the GOOD in just hearing "there's a problem". I think a lot of people feel like... why even bother or try because its like a mountain we're all trying to move with 'thoughts and prayers'. When people deny the problem exists we don't know whether its because its too big for them or because they actually don't agree it is a problem. For all we know they view it as the solution to a different problem.

But when someone says "there's a problem and I think we need to work on it" that's what melts our hearts because we can see your heart isn't ice. We gain more respect for these individuals whether they think they're being brave or not. It can be brave if the community around you is racist. These words seems so... easy to say, so logical, so obvious... but because we are not used to hearing it from white people it makes us more cautious of whites in general because racism is something very easily hidden. All racists have had to do in the last 60 years has really been to just be quiet and say nothing about race.

So it is in that silence that nothing significant has been done and that same silence that makes it difficult for us to know who is on our side and when I say "our side" I mean the side of humanity against these harmful artificial divisions and anti-human propaganda because there is only one race, the human race, and so when you advance the notion that it is okay to oppress humans based on the color of their skin you're actually doing damage to your own (human) race.

So I just wanted to call you out Kobos... and say thank you for what you said. It may not seem like a big deal to you, but it is.
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31 Jul 2020 12:31 #353595 by Kobos
Thank you Zealot,

The thing is there are a lot of us out there that see there is a problem. A lot of us work in ways within our own grasp to change it. My personal field is education. I don't hold much power. However, I do what I can. Sometimes that means pointing out things that a lot of people will just chalk up to random things. Like I said one of the most irritating things to me is the response to behavioral/academic problems being just lowering the standard to make it look like it's not happening.

The solution is to bring communities together to hold themselves accountable. I find it, hard to believe that a national response will be effective, they hardly are (that actually work) no matter the problem. I think this idea that there is a solve all is an issue has led to a lot of complications that will compound it. People don't like riots but overwhelmingly respect and respond to peaceful protests. This is an issue right now, there has been a significant attempt to change the definition of "peaceful" protest and that is a huge issue. It disenfranchises many potential allies that actually have the means to actually assist. The thing is that there are a lot of peaceful actual protesters that are not willing to point or turn in the people who violently act. This is huge and it is having horrible side effects, it is quite literally undermining the real solutions that could be brought up.

This to me is a problem that has really really set us back. Bad faith actors not willing to have a conversation, but to further their own agendas, and that has to be called out or will continue to get worse.The sad part is that national leaders of the movement have disowned this behavior, but the national people in government have not.

I guess my biggest thing is to really push the peaceful part and how we can hold the politic in general responsible for the actions the do not or will not make to work towards the problem. Also, on a side note, to many it seems that they are being brow beaten into accepting a solution they don't see as effective, it causes us to take steps back in progress.

Again just my point of view.

Much love,

What has to come ? Will my heart grow numb ?
How will I save the world ? By using my mind like a gun
Seems a better weapon, 'cause everybody got heat
I know I carry mine, since the last time I got beat
MF DOOM Books of War

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
Knight of the Conclave
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31 Jul 2020 14:41 #353596 by ZealotX
Kobos, you bring up a good point.

Let's take TOTJO for an example. We have different views because we're not a monolith that forces a certain view, certain beliefs or practices. Therefore, we're not really responsible for one another. What does the Force mean to you? What is your expression of the Force? These are all you and no one else can know where you stand unless they ask you.

Some protesters are like Jedi. They absolutely agree with you about the value of peaceful protest and feel like that is the way.

Some protesters are like Sith. They want to break their chains but it has been so long that they are simply willing to be more destructive. If you keep slapping an animal but expect it not to bite you or use its claws then to some degree, when it happens its your fault. You provoked them.

I'm not a sith. It's not really in my DNA. But do I understand it? Yes. For them, they believe the only way to get the less "Jedi" of white people... the more sith-like white people who have a lot of power... to do something is to hurt them financially. The idea that protesters are all trying to convince little old ladies isn't true. And the protests, even the peaceful ones, aren't really targeted at whites who are already progressive and who already see a problem. These white people often march along side of the black protesters because they're both trying to be heard by a larger group.

The people in the middle.

The people in the middle lean in both directions because this is a spectrum, not a binary thing. There are many who lean towards the sith mentality but admit to no such thing. And then there are those who lean towards Jedi but are pained to take any action because they are passive. Passivity can be thought of as a trait that is more likely to be found in Jedi rather than Sith.

So the protest is actually two pronged. And even back in the early civil rights movement it was also 2 pronged because you had Martin Luther King on one hand and Malcolm X on the other. And one of them stood for "by any means necessary". So you had people who agreed with MLK and thought peaceful demonstration was the way. And then you had people who agreed more with X and they weren't about 'asking' for equality. And still today, black people identify more with one or the other but typically love and respect both. And ultimately, realize that a middleground between them is what's necessary.

Me being much more aligned with the positive flow of energy, epitomized by the Jedi, I'm more MLK and therefore feel like the more hostile protests are a set back. However, I also believe in the notion of establishing economic power in the black community so that until racism goes away we have our own stuff and don't have to be in an inferior economic position. But I believe it is a balance that is necessary, between taking care of ourselves and trying to change the minds of others and urge society to appeal to what's right; our "better angels" if you will.

When one approach fails... when the peaceful approach seems to hit a wall... the other approach is bound to appear and grown in strength. There now exists a black militia. I hate that this is something they felt necessary. But at the same time, not only do they see the killings by police (which is only a symptom of a large disease), but also they see Nazis coming out to play, and other people committing acts of domestic terror with the very motive of starting a race war.

Those people are not interested in hugs. No one's going to convince them with old negro hymns and MLK speeches about children playing together. And while we can say, "then why bother", the truth is it's often those people that have the guns... and badges.

So we need to have the more Jedi-like white people to help identify, call out, and get those more sith-like white people out of positions where they can murder, steal from, or try to destroy the lives of minorities. Beyond conversations, we as a society, have that power. And before protesters should ever be expected to turn in more violent protesters, the police should be expected and required to turn in more violent cops. Companies should turn in more racist managers and bosses. Etc.

The worst thing the Jedi did in the fictional universe was to fail to identify the threat before the threat could take over and execute them. But all of society has the same problem. Karens only try to identify black and brown people they feel threatened by. They call them out to be punished when they're doing nothing wrong. Meanwhile many of those actually doing wrong are never even suspected.

So the way I feel about it is, I understand the violent protesters and even though that's not my cup of tea there is a limit to how much tea we can drink before we dump it in the harbor. There's a limit to how much we can take before we fight back and turn the colonies into a nation. There's a limit to how much we can take before we fought the civil war. And as long as racists are being protect, both in and out of the police forces, then I don't feel inclined to turn in people who are fighting for the same thing, just in another way. I do hear you though and your point has validity. I just don't think that should come first because that is what's causing more attention on the subject. Sometimes you have to make people uncomfortable in order to be heard and a regular protest doesn't do that.
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