What would help the Temple Be A Better Place? Suggestions please...

  • ReallyRiver
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11 Jul 2017 21:13 #290397 by ReallyRiver
Why would it be disheartening to not be called a "member"? Because - and I'm not nay saying the IP here, I do think it's an important part of the learning offered - the IP isn't the only way to learn about Jediism. To be honest, none of the IP options are the way I best learn. I best learn through conversation and connection, so I've been doing a lot of PMing, a lot of asking questions, a lot of listening in on the chat and the forums. In short, I've been doing a lot of learning what it is to be a Jedi.

But this hasn't translated into my IP lessons progressing much. Given the three options this far, reading is easiest for me, but it's still difficult. Not because I don't adore the material but because my particular set of brains just doesn't work that way.

But I am, imo, a member here. I've been given assignments/suggestions by higher ups, and completed them. I've studied in my own way. Maybe there should be criteria for being a member, but I don't think it should be something as massive as the IP (and to me it does feel almost overwhelmingly massive). Maybe an essay/article/ sermon with ten or fifteen questions to answer...

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  • Dano Ori
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11 Jul 2017 21:22 #290399 by Dano Ori
Perhaps we should split the discussion of rank to another thread so as to avoid drowning other unrelated suggestions in the deluge of opinions?

The simplest solution may be to simply do away with the Member rank.
If you're just here to look around until you decide to commit; you're a Guest.
If you decide this really is for you, you've probably fulfilled the current requirements for Novice anyway.

Maybe completing Lesson 1 as a requirement for submitting an application is reasonable; maybe it's not. Not everyone who comes here can study like a full time student.
I like to think I've been reasonably active here since I joined, though I posted little at the outset until I began to feel more accepted as a 'member' of TotJO, but I've only just completed Lesson 1 and it has taken 9 months, because.. well... life. For some this is a small hurdle, easily overcome, on the path to being a member; for others it could well see them give up.

That's why I suggested in my previous post that our Knights/Apprentices could draft some Original TotJO material as a 'Jediism 101'. An introductory lesson or 'IP Lite' would ensure those that sign up know what they're signing up to without requiring onerous amounts of study to determine if this is their path or not. I think making that a requirement rather than the entire IP ticks the boxes for ensuring those that join know what they're joining while not 'indoctrinating' everyone by forcing them to complete more in depth studies. Remember: not every member of a catholic church trains to be a priest, it's enough to learn some prayers/hymns, the commandments and be an active participant in the church. (It actually bothers me how much I rely on mainstream religion to illustrate comparative points - I may need professional help.)


On the subject of Apprentices and the IP, my suggestion was for Apprentices to facilitate discussion among Novices before the Novices complete their individual responses.
By way of analogy, the Apprentice would be the fitness coach running a group fitness class where the participants are responsible for their own efforts under some basic guidance whereas a Knight is like the personal trainer working one on one to ensure their Apprentice is lifting the correct weights in the manner that is best for them as an individual.

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11 Jul 2017 21:26 #290400 by Manu

Edan wrote: To use a crude simile... it would be like buying a football shirt for your team, learning all the players' names and histories, but not being allowed in the members' bar while everyone else sits inside and talks about the latest match while you're outside with your pint wondering why nobody will let you in.


But that is not how people act here. Member or not, everyone is cheering you to come in and celebrate. I've never seen anyone's opinion dismissed simply because they had "Guest" under their name.

I'm not interested in making things exclusive. Openness is a good thing. After reading through quite a few replies, I've changed my position regarding the confidentiality of the IP. But also make titles have value.

ReallyRiver wrote: Why would it be disheartening to not be called a "member"? Because - and I'm not nay saying the IP here, I do think it's an important part of the learning offered - the IP isn't the only way to learn about Jediism.


That doesn't really answer the question, though. I understand that there are many ways to learn about Jediism. But how is being a "guest" distinct from being a "member". What changed?

Problems that remain persistently insoluble should always be suspected as questions asked in the wrong way - Alan Watts

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  • ReallyRiver
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11 Jul 2017 21:31 #290405 by ReallyRiver
I made a new thread, Rank Names and Are They Important, which I'll answer in

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12 Jul 2017 15:26 #290564 by Rosalyn J

Rick D wrote: Roz,
I know you have already offered to help, and I truly thank you because I am going to need it, but my criticism is more about the clarity of the parameters of the assignment. Everyone says that Krishnamurti is a tough assignment, and maybe it is, but but assignment as spelled out may be part of the problem, and a clearer understanding of what is being asked may make it easier.

Also, I know that there is a team that is working with novices, working through the IP, but my point is that I would like to see it be a compulsory part of the apprenticeship program.


So adding something like onjectives? Questions for consideration?

Pax Per Ministerium
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12 Jul 2017 16:09 #290581 by Breeze el Tierno
I think part of the issue lays in the approach. I do not believe we should regard the Council as the primary source of solutions.

I know it sounds bad. Hear me out.

The Council is an administritive body. They take care of the really egregious stuff, but even that is really just custodial work. They should keep the lights on and the floor more or less clean.

It is a mistake to ask them to curate our experience as Jedi at any level too much. We are here to learn and train. We should be making efforts to solve our own problems in a manner in keeping withe the mission of the site. Good Jedi will make a good Temple. If you are waiting for the Council to make the place just right before you start keeping it Jedi, you're making an error. It's an understandable error, but an error nonetheless.

The Temple has natural leaders. Some are on the Council and some aren't. And that's alright.

Spend your effort on your further training, your further cultivation. Do not ask the Temple to provide the type of Jedi that you refuse to be. We're all going to make mistakes and we're all going to fail, but if we are steadfast in our efforts and courteous with each other, the rest is dross.

Do not spend too much time focussing on those in authority. It is only website authority. Look to leaders for example and try to be an example yourself. If you don't know how, take it up with your Training Master. You either have one, had one, or will, if you do the work.

The Council has my respect. It is draining, consuming work. I hope this is not regarded as an attack. I just know that good Jedi make the place work. People waiting to be good Jedi do not, and no amount of institutional adjustments will correct for that.

If the webiste were to disappear entirely tomorrow, would you still be a Jedi? How would you respond? Those answers should tell you a lot about what you ought to be doing now.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Wescli Wardest, Dano Ori

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12 Jul 2017 16:39 #290590 by Wescli Wardest

Cabur Senaar wrote: I think part of the issue lays in the approach. I do not believe we should regard the Council as the primary source of solutions.

I know it sounds bad. Hear me out.

The Council is an administritive body. They take care of the really egregious stuff, but even that is really just custodial work. They should keep the lights on and the floor more or less clean.


Well said.

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  • tzb
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12 Jul 2017 16:44 - 12 Jul 2017 17:03 #290592 by tzb

Cabur Senaar wrote: They should keep the lights on and the floor more or less clean.


Totally agree.

However.

Given many actions undertaken here, even those which already have officer-led administrative bodies attached (eg from my immediate experience any amendment to any clerical documentation, training etc) must pass through them, and are I would say regularly blocked (or "hung up") by them, that's not really possible.

If the Council were to delegate responsibility to Officers a little more, that would be a great opportunity for the community to feel empowered and for that situation to come about. As it is, we even HAVE the Officers you'd need to make that happen... but their work is dependent on the Council to keep going. "Please can you edit this"... "Please can I change that"... "Please can you guys vote on this new wording for this"... a whole range of day to day stuff Officers aren't trusted to do themselves, dependant on an overworked, slow-moving and poorly-attended body :dry:

One can get on with "being a Jedi" at the Temple very well and unencumbered. But, and I really believe this is an amazingly positive thing, an opportunity and a credit to our community, something to be nurtured and supported as much as possible... people aren't interested in "just getting on". They want to give back. To work within and to grow this place. People don't just want to "sit in" the Temple, they want to be part of the Temple... support it, grow it, improve it. And that is hampered by reliance on the rather cumbersome and opaque Council to make and ratify decisions.

So two options present themselves... either loosen the grip and focus on keeping the lights on and floor clean, or make the Council more effective. Up to this post I've focused on the latter, but there's loads of room for the former.
Last edit: 12 Jul 2017 17:03 by tzb.

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12 Jul 2017 16:51 #290595 by Rosalyn J
Being in Council and in Synod as Secretary I will say I havent noticed much of a lag in response time as Pastor. Just things get burried. Someone brought to my attention the confidance form. Totally slipped my mind. Ill need to bump the thread in Council. Ill need to take greater responsibility to keep the silent hammer going

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12 Jul 2017 16:53 #290597 by tzb
But you must've noticed the wide variety of things we brought forward during your time in Synod before now which were unbelievably delayed or ultimately parked because of Council decisions we couldn't get... and that's an issue, I think it's daft to pretend it's not.

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