What self defense form is quickest to practical aplication? DO NOT ANSWER WITHOUT READING FULL POST!

  • Sradac
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18 Aug 2009 20:47 #25408 by Sradac
I agree about Combatives from the US army. I took 10 years of tae kwon do when I was younger, and while it was great discipline and worked against others using it, the downfall in karate, tae kwon do, kung fu, etc is they teach you very little about ground combat. The simple fact is, 90% of all fights end up on the ground, and if all you know is strikes such as kicks and punches, you WILL loose once that fight goes to the ground. I would find something that teaches both strikes and holds/grapples/ground fighting.

I'm a fan of muai thai, but it does take time to learn and become proficient in so it might not be good for a beginner. Ju Jitsu is another good martial art. Tae Kwon Do is heavily focused on competition fighting, meaning most schools teach you how to fight and win in tournaments, they teach no strikes to the face, no pressure points (LEARN pressure points they are key in a lot of fights), no weak points of the body to strike that will cripple your opponent. Aikido is usefull, but also dont ignore the relatively unknown Hopkido. It focues on joint locks and strikes, both long and short range fighting.

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  • Seishan
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10 Sep 2009 20:52 #25715 by Seishan
Hi Karr, glad your lessons are going well. I just thought I'd pop a few thoughts in.

I started out training in martial arts in about 1999 (Wado Ryu Karate do) and would say to you that whatever you train in, just train intelligently and frequently. It's what you put into the style that you choose to train in that gives you the benefits, the fitness, stamina, confidence, posture, poise and awareness etc. It should help you to not stand out as a 'victim' which seems to be a big factor for a lot of people (it seems that way in England anyway), it'll teach you to walk like a tiger!B) Oh and be wary of people who say 'My art is better than your art!'.

And if your flatmate is a blackbelt in judo, take him up on his offer of lessons, it's one of the most underrated yet effective martial arts that you can study. Any crosstraining that you can do should be beneficial if done effectively.

Oh, and kudos to the jedi who posted that kata cannot teach you enough in the beginning (or words to that effect), I meet two many martial artists who say 'kata doesn't teach you anything', I believe personally that it can teach a helluva lot more than most people believe.

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  • ObiOne
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10 Sep 2009 23:43 #25717 by ObiOne
With this and another two post down there, I am noticeing a lot of people in the jedi community have a fondness for Aikido.

But to be honest, I consider it a quite difficult martial art to master.Definitly not ideal for someone who is looking for quick self-defence results.

It takes an undisclosed amount of YEARS to be really proficent at it. Relies heavily on how well are your kinetic intelligence and innate fighting skills.

As someone else said early in this post, there DO exists specific academies for self-defence that borrows the simpliest technics from many martial arts.

Box is also a good thing to try, again, for its simple effictiveness for street-fighting. Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) and WTF Tae Kwon Do are heavily oriented toward competition and chances are high they might not work well in unsanctioned (street) combat.

Brazilian Jujitsu has been shown to work well against a single opponent but for more than one opponents, even two, it losses most of its efectiveness because going to the ground with one of the opponents while the other is on foot it's the worst thing can happen to you.

Many schools of karate teach preasure/vital points which are your best choice against a bigger, stronger enemy. Aikido also has Atemi, which is the same, striking to the vital points, but normaly it's only teached after you've attained serious ranks.

Judo would be also and excellent choice in your case. But it's a tough one martial art to train.

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  • Kana Seiko Haruki
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11 Sep 2009 08:37 #25727 by Kana Seiko Haruki
The point about Kata - if its been good enough for the inventors of martial arts for hundreds (if not over a thousand) years then its sure good enough and useful enough for me.

Once again an old point but the problem with martial arts or boxing etc is there is a simple fact that what suits one person may not suit another - keep in mind that the original sources of each exponent were different - ie different nationalities and like it or not - there are physiological differences between nationalities -

another form no one mentions too often and is perhaps overlooked/under rated is something greek style wrestling - not necessarily a martial art but useful.

The point about 'walking like a tiger' is very very true - along with being aware of your surroundings - even something a simple as wearing a flashy watch or using your mobile phone whilst walking down the street can make you a target - you could call this being street wise. I live in a reasonably rough town (worse during the summer months when the tourists arrive) and as someone who is short, skinny and walks with a stick - I guess im often seen as a target - however - whilst ive been aware of being followed or eyed over a number of times, a quick change of hand position and stance has always worked as a deterrent - if you appear to be able to handle yourself - your unlikely to be bothered - its like the way some animals puff themselves up to look bigger. But whilst seemingly easy and obvious now - if you feel under threat - look ahead and around you - look for safe zones and escape routes or even refuge - just walk into a store for example - your unlikely to be mugged in a store - most if not all robbers etc are essentially cowards.

Im all for anyone and everyone investing time etc into learning (properly) a martial art - but your onto a loser (in more ways than one) if you think there is any quick fix - and remember a little knowledge can be dangerous - keep in mind that there is nothing to stop any mugger/rapist etc also learning martial arts - always assume the opponent is 'better' than you (and armed) - diffusion of the situation is better than serious injury or death - if all they want is your phone then let them have the damned phone or whatever - principals and pride (or a few quid/bucks) are not worth getting hurt or killed over.

If you want 'self defence' ie dirty fighting - then get lessons in that - want to learn a martial art then do so - but expect to spend years before your remotely competent at your chosen art.

On to art vs art - 1sr - in all the arts ive tied - all the teachers have said one same thing to a common question - 'who would win in a fight between masters of x art and y art' the answer is always 'if they are masters - it would be a draw and no fighting would take place - theyd probably shake hands and talk together' - id also like to tell you of something I witnessed during my aikido days - two youngish women joined to try out aikido - both were brown belt taekwondo exponents and a little bullish about it - so at the end of the class - the Aikido master asked them to demonstrate on him at the same time - no hold barred and to try and actually hit him. Both failed miserably - he avoided or defeated every attempt using very little energy and finished up by putting both woman on their faces (at the same time) Forgot to add he was at least 40years there senior.

Now obviously im not saying one art is better than the other but the point im making is given time, training and dedication - anything is possible but dont rush it and dont ever assume any art is 'useless' against 2, 3, 4, 5,

A bad craftsman always blames his tools

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  • Seishan
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15 Sep 2009 11:13 #25772 by Seishan
Another point about kata (or forms or patterns whatever your chosen system calls them) is that if trained correctly it focuses the mind. When performing it you don't think about what the next move is, your body should do it automatically.(Remeber the line in Enter the Dragon where Bruce Lee says he doesn't punch, his fist punches all by itself?)

You should also take time to study the application of each move, martial artists who just go throught the motions aren't martial artists thay are merely 'Martial copyists' who probably believe that they are just doing kata to pass a grading. There are probably hundreds of applications for each move, it's up to you to discover them.

Light and peace, Matt.

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  • Merin Kyo Den
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15 Sep 2009 11:40 #25773 by Merin Kyo Den
You know Karr I could go on all day with self defense tips for you but really that's not the problem as I see it. You see self confidence NEVER comes from outside of us. It's something we find within. You can take all the classes you want and it will only mask the insecurity that lurks inside of you. There is at the end of the day no martial art that will ultimately give you what your looking for. The thing you need is not self defense, but self love. It's very easy to hurt someone Karr, you don't even need to be a martial artist to do that. The hardest thing in the world, absolutely the hardest, is to love ourselves just as we are, flaws and all. In side of you is love, but it's masked and covered over by the pain of your experiences. Learn to uncover the love you hold within yourself and all else will follow because only love, love of self, will free you and nothing can add that to you. This is something you have to find within yourself and no matter what your mind might tell you it's there. It's just waiting for you to look is all.

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15 Sep 2009 18:36 #25785 by Karr McDebt
Merin Kyo Den,

Sorry to say, but you are way off base.

PTSD is not a symptom of low self esteem.

It is a psychological reaction, based from trauma.

Repetative trauma, like watching my Mother get beaten by her boyfriends and not being able to do anything about it, like years of being the target of bullys and loosing every fight I got pushed into.

I like who I am. And everyday I like who I am more. I'm a good person, striving to become better everyday.

The simple fact of the matter is that I'm unable to defend myself from physical attacks.

Quick, simple solution,.... Concealed gun permit and a 9mm. But thats not the route I want to take.

So while I understand your sentiment, its not accurate in this instance.
(and my therepists agrees.)

So thank you for your thoughts, but in this situation, its not helpfull.

Pureland Rite
Jedi Knight Initiate

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15 Sep 2009 19:54 #25786 by Karr McDebt
I reread my response and realized just how harsh it comes accross. This was not my intention.

I only ment to assert that my issue is not based in self esteem.

I did have low self esteem for most of my life, and its only the last 10 years or so that I've actualy liked who I am. I'm a kind person, I'm very empathetic of others emotions. So much so that I've had to teach myself that the just because I can feel others emotions, doesn't mean that they are mine. I've had to learn to (to barrow a pagan term) create \"psychic shields\" so that I'm not overwhelmed by them.

I've learned to seperate me from others, and in that process I found myself. And I was supprised to find that I liked me. Still have plenty of problems to work on, but I've made a lot of progress, and most importanly,... I'm still working on improving.

The one obsticle that I can't seem to get over or work arround is this Fear.
The fear that starts when someone raises their voice in debate, the fear that comes when I smell alcohol on someones breath or in their sweat. The fear that I'm about to be beaten and left bleeding.

So I see to possible options here:

1. Let it happen. Actualy experience being left bloody on the ground,....again! , and then keep tellings myself that its not that bad, that I survived it, and could survive it again.

or

2. Learn self defense. Teach my body, and my mind that I am able to deal with violent situations if necessary in a safe and controlled environment.

As a Buddhist I can understand if you feel that option 1 is the approprate one.

As a Jedi I understand that in some instances, violence is necessary.
But is only appropriate as a last resort for the defence of myself or innocents.

I'm seeking self Confidence. Confidence comes from knowing that you are able to accomplish a thing. In this case the thing is self defence. To be able to accomplish a thing, you need to be taught,... or figure it out for yourself. I've failed to figure it out for myself, so I belive that its time to be taught. However the question remains, be taught what.....

Options avalable to me:
Tak Kwan Do
Jujitsu (one Gracie, one not)
Judo
9mm (not an option I care to choose)

Thats all thats offered where I live, at least till I can get back into school.

In closing, I'd like to appologize if I offended anyone. I am here to learn, not to attack those who try and teach me.

Pureland Rite
Jedi Knight Initiate

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  • Merin Kyo Den
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15 Sep 2009 21:51 #25787 by Merin Kyo Den
No sweat man. Sorry if I offended you. It's just that confidence isn't something you'll find outside even if it's a selling point for martial arts schools. The best thing you could study is boxing at a gym that'll let you spar. You can learn forms all day but if your afarid to get hit it'll all go out the window when the poop hits the fan.

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  • Kana Seiko Haruki
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16 Sep 2009 06:21 #25788 by Kana Seiko Haruki
Back to the point on kata

there is a line in Hagakure which sums up the point of kata quite nicely (for me at least)

Not got it to hand for direct quote (or page number etc but it goes along the lines of

'even when one is beheaded in combat - the body should still be able to perform one final intended action properly'

If you want to buy 'confidence' in a can - it is possible -is known as mace but not the right answer (likewise with any weapon) as Merin points out - youve gotta be able and willing to take a hit or two but fights are like xmas - its better to give than receive (if you have too) :D

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