How do you know you have a Choice?

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9 years 4 months ago #172146 by Gisteron
Determinism nowadays must reach outside of Newton's laws precisely because they are insufficient to account for all phenomena. Nevertheless, he had never come up with those laws had he not observed patterns in the world around him and we would never have improved upon those laws were it not for more accurate measurements ever since. The entire enterprise of science in general and physics in particular is possible only under the tentative assumption that the reality we find ourselves in, as a matter of fact, as an actual reality operates on actual and (perhaps conveniently) intelligible rules, and same enterprise couldn't possibly be anywhere near as successful as it is, if that assumption was severely incorrect.

So with and without our access to perfectly accurate descriptions of any one, much less all phenomena of reality, there is a good chance that reality as a whole and in parts is less than capricious and random and arbitrary. It may not be a perfectly safe bet, but to put your figuritive money on the contrary is foolish, to put it kindly. Besides, if some truly random force of nature truly randomly moved you to a decision, as ren pointed out, where exactly was your free will anyway? Even if all of our brain chemistry was completely unpredictable, free will would still remain an open question, arguably even more so than it is otherwise, as ren pointed out.

For all we know determinism is more likely true than not.

So what? How is anything different given this realization?

That's what I meant when I said that it is similar to hard solipsism. It is not an illegitimate thought at all. It just happens to be an intellectual dead end that neither leads to anything beyond itself nor helps with anything you passed on your way there. Unlike solipsism, determinism keeps gathering evidence in its favour. But it's still a dead end.

Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned

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9 years 4 months ago #172149 by

ren wrote: In reply to what senan and goken have said, how do you know you have a choice? And that your ability to choose isn't a mere belief?


It is a belief. ???

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9 years 4 months ago #172226 by
Ren wrote:

Phortis, on the topic of hardwiring (personally not convinced of that, though my beliefs are similar), Do you think you would have become a fireman had you not been a HVAC installer for 18 years? Also, if you weren't hardwired to be a HVAC installer for 18 years, then why were you a HVAC installer for 18 years?


It was probably meant to be if you look at all the factors that I was blind to in my earlier twenties. The problem really come down to the fact that I am very mechanically inclined and took to HVAC like a fish to water. 9 months after graduating high school, I had my own company truck and was a lead installed by the time I was 19. I was making good pay for 1978-79. Things went sour because I got caught up in letting others make my decisions.

It would be a long psychological tail and I would probably wear out the couch, but it comes down to not having my own mind or direction and letting others choose my path. I realized too late that I have my own life and path. There are things I have always been drawn to and I should have follow that path from the start.

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9 years 4 months ago #172229 by ren

Phortis Nespin wrote: Ren wrote:

Phortis, on the topic of hardwiring (personally not convinced of that, though my beliefs are similar), Do you think you would have become a fireman had you not been a HVAC installer for 18 years? Also, if you weren't hardwired to be a HVAC installer for 18 years, then why were you a HVAC installer for 18 years?


It was probably meant to be if you look at all the factors that I was blind to in my earlier twenties. The problem really come down to the fact that I am very mechanically inclined and took to HVAC like a fish to water. 9 months after graduating high school, I had my own company truck and was a lead installed by the time I was 19. I was making good pay for 1978-79. Things went sour because I got caught up in letting others make my decisions.

It would be a long psychological tail and I would probably wear out the couch, but it comes down to not having my own mind or direction and letting others choose my path. I realized too late that I have my own life and path. There are things I have always been drawn to and I should have follow that path from the start.


As such, would you not say that doing this (HVAC for 18 yrs) was a necessary step for you to come to that realization (that you do not want others to choose for you and you must do something that is more meaningful to you)? If so, does it not mean that those 18 years, which aren't "hardwired" into you played a major role into getting you on your "hardwired" path?

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.

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9 years 4 months ago #172254 by
Actually Ren, I'm wondering now if both the HVAC and Firefighting were hardwired. If you look at the nature of HVAC and the fact that both my father and brother and family history dating back to when my ancestors lived in Russia were "tinners and tinkers", it may be that HVAC is a service to others and was also hardwired.

So was I always serving and just didn't realize that HVAC was a service to others?

So service to others was hardwired, but the manner in which I allowed other to choose my type of service was not? (moves to couch and is now laying down) Dr Ren?

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9 years 4 months ago #172393 by

ren wrote: In reply to what senan and goken have said, how do you know you have a choice? And that your ability to choose isn't a mere belief?


Nothing is known, only believed.

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