Conscription - Draft

Akkarin wrote: Steam, I am deeply skeptical about a social contract I have never signed, but am expected to fulfill the obligations of.

Welcome to voluntaryism , Akkarin. Now, realize that contract isn't limited to conscription, and you're set.

steamboat28 wrote:

Akkarin wrote: Steam, I am deeply skeptical about a social contract I have never signed, but am expected to fulfill the obligations of.

Welcome to voluntaryism , Akkarin. Now, realize that contract isn't limited to conscription, and you're set.

I will have to do some more reading into that, because it is something I have not come across before - but it is very intriguing.

First, I'm not in the military and never have been. I chose to pursue other options.

I am ,however, an Eagle Scout after 7 years of membership in the Boy Scouts of America, and while I do not pretend to compare my experiences with any sort of military training, I will say that it instilled me with the idea that we ALL have an obligation to serve ourselves, our gods, our families, and our communities. In short, we have a duty to god, duty to country, and duty to self.

There has been a lot of talk here about contracts and obligations and a 'freedom to choose'. What we tend to forget, particularly in long established 'free' societies, is that those freedoms came at a cost. Whether it was 14 years ago in New York City, 50 years ago in Vietnam, or 240 some odd years ago in Colonial America, there have always been Americans willing to put others before themselves and give their lives so that the rest of us could be free and remain free. The same can be said for every other 'free' nation in the world.

Whether you agree with the current cause of your government or not, you should not forget that your government (and the freedoms and protections it provides you) did not come about on its own. People fought for it, died for it, built it, and have taken pride in it. To demand a personal right to ignore an obligation that comes with being a citizen, in my mind, is selfish and offensive to the people who have made that choice even possible.

In the rare and dire circumstance that my government would call me into service, I will go. Whether I agree with the motivation or not. It is the price I will pay to enjoy the life (and the right to vote) I am allowed as a U.S. citizen. To do otherwise is to forget the sacrifices made by so many that make it possible.

Thank you for sitting through my patriotic rant.

Senan, I agree with what you said except for one point. This thread is about forced service and to force someone to do something is to make it no longer a "right" or a "freedom" or a "choice." If you wish to volunteer out of patriotism that's great. I agree that we should do what we can to make our community, state, country, etc. better places and that we should honor the sacrifices made to give us those rights. I do, however, argue that people sacrificed and died so that people could choose not to do something as well as choose to do it.

Edit: after re-reading your post, Senan, I'm not sure if I actually said anything contradictory. I still stand by what I said, I guess I was just a little confused as what you said until I read it again.

Senan, I agree with what you said except for one point. This thread is about forced service and to force someone to do something is to make it no longer a "right" or a "freedom" or a "choice."

What makes you think you have a choice about anything? the language you use, going to school, having some kind of job, obeying the law, etc... ?

When it comes to being 'forced' into service, we still have the 'choice' we value so much as an individual. I can choose to break the law. I can choose to shoot myself in the foot and get out of serving. I can choose to leave my country and live somewhere that I won't be drafted. I can choose to pretend I never got the draft card in the mail. I can make all kinds of choices, and some of them aren't even illegal.

People get stuck on this idea that the big bad government is 'forcing' them to do things. I've never been drafted. I didn't fill out my registration for Selective Service at gunpoint. I choose to do Jury Duty when I am called, but I know plenty of people who don't.

People make choices all the time. Every day. But every choice comes with consequences. The consequence of choosing to be an American is that you may be drafted into military service... unless you are female, which is the ACTUAL problem with Selective Service as it exists currently in the U.S.

ren wrote:

Senan, I agree with what you said except for one point. This thread is about forced service and to force someone to do something is to make it no longer a "right" or a "freedom" or a "choice."

What makes you think you have a choice about anything? the language you use, going to school, having some kind of job, obeying the law, etc... ?

I do have a choice. I could learn Spanish and speak nothing but that. I could skip school everyday and never go. I could chose not to go to work. I could break the law. People make those very choices every day. I would just have to live with the consequences of those choices. There are few people in my area that would understand me if I only spoke Spanish, I would be less intelligent and employable if I didn't go to school, I would get fired and become homeless if I didn't go to work, I would go to jail if I broke the law. I don't want those things to happen so I choose to speak the most common language of my area, to go to school, go to work, and obey the law.

My point was simply that the topic of this thread is about forced military service and Senan's post was about doing it out of duty because people sacrificed and died for that right. My point was that forcing me to do it made it no longer a right. I was not saying that doing them out of a sense of duty is wrong, just that forcing me to do it out of someone else's sense of duty is.

Edit: On a side note. I have nothing but respect for the military. I have considered joining them myself but I have a heart condition that makes me ineligible. I must do what I can for my country from home.

Senan wrote: There has been a lot of talk here about contracts and obligations and a 'freedom to choose'. What we tend to forget, particularly in long established 'free' societies, is that those freedoms came at a cost. Whether it was 14 years ago in New York City, 50 years ago in Vietnam, or 240 some odd years ago in Colonial America, there have always been Americans willing to put others before themselves and give their lives so that the rest of us could be free and remain free. The same can be said for every other 'free' nation in the world.

Whether you agree with the current cause of your government or not, you should not forget that your government (and the freedoms and protections it provides you) did not come about on its own. People fought for it, died for it, built it, and have taken pride in it. To demand a personal right to ignore an obligation that comes with being a citizen, in my mind, is selfish and offensive to the people who have made that choice even possible.

I understand that you wish to uphold the desires of your forebears, but if I'm honest that sounds a lot like an appeal to tradition. Wouldn't someone who fought in such wars argue "I didn't fight for America so that gay black and asian men could get married!" Should we respect their homophobic and racist positions too?

The past is for informing ourselves of the present, the past is not there so that we'll be beholden to it in the present.