Too much focus on individual words?

Rickie The Grey wrote:

steamboat28 wrote: The Force isn't about silence, either. And, typically, only one of those things helps us communicate.

Didn't ask anyone to be silent?

The world is full of opposing forces that define each other. One of these pairs is the silence/speech dichotomy when communicating verbally. You can either be understood through words (vocally), or you can let your silence speak for you.

Silence is subjective. You know what your silence means and others do not, unless they know you well enough to hazard a potentially-incorrect guess.

Words can be subjective (connotations vary regionally, and from background), but they can also be objective, since every language has groups of people that have written books about the most common or accepted uses of certain words. We call these books "dictionaries", and they're terribly handy for ensuring one is properly understood while communicating.

This "focus on individual words" is not a negative if it helps us understand one another. No amount of "feeling" will help us communicate clearly and accurately, because feeling is subjective. If you're to explain a feeling, it helps (very much) to do it in as objective terms as you can manage so you're properly understood.

I won't hum my three-word chorus here, but you know what I'm saying. Everyone who's a regular here knows what I'm saying.

I "feel", that as Jedi, we should strive to look at the message rather than the messenger. The words are important but they are just the vehicle. Conversations might go smoother and be more enlightening if we looked at them that way.

I agree.

This "focus on individual words" is not a negative

I'm not saying that either. Relying just on words is not enough for understanding to take place.

No amount of "feeling" will help us communicate clearly and accurately, because feeling is subjective.

Exactly. Subjective is feeling. We can understand things subjectively. Words evoke feelings. Feeling that help us understand. Too much focus on just words limits understanding.

IMHO You can't learn about the living force with more and more words. You need to feel it to learn it. Words have limits the force is unlimited. It is a subjective experience.

I've said it before, and I will say it again.

We eff up a lot of things trying to make the effable ineffable.

Goken wrote: ...I have said in other threads that since we can only communicate via written words here that word choice is something that should be considered carefully, but that was not meant to imply that words should be viewed as seperate from the message.

I feel, that as Jedi, we should strive to look at the message rather than the messenger....

With regard to the Original Post:

"The medium is the message" - Marshall McLuhan

I believe you've hit on an inherent weakness in the "Fora-Format".

The written can more easily be misinterpreted as it lacks the other tonal and visual cues we would get from a live discussion... Threads can go side-ways in a hurry without mindful intent to understand and appreciate that we're all here to communicate...

I think it means we have to be much more sensitive to potential - unwritten - nuances and react less with the lizard-brain when we perceive a strongly opposing comment.

One of my favourite poorly chosen radio jingo's "We've upped our service, now up yours!" Illustrates the potential-pitfalls of enthusiastic communication...

Our defense-against-dark-threads:

• Focus
• Knowledge
• Wisdom

Arkayik wrote: The written can more easily be misinterpreted as it lacks the other tonal and visual cues we would get from a live discussion... Threads can go side-ways in a hurry without mindful intent to understand and appreciate that we're all here to communicate...

Precisely why I am a consistent advocate of precise language here. Objective words and statements wherever possible. Mostly-concrete metaphors after that, and subjective words as a last resort. Otherwise it's too easy to misinterpret.

If we stopped saying things like "individual words" and "objective words" and painted a broader metaphorical picture, I wonder how many of you would agree?

If I'm trying to explain something to you in Swahili, and you only spoke Dutch, would words still not be important? Would the transmission of knowledge be hampered? Or could we all just "feel" our way through the IP, through things our teaching masters teach, through forum posts to find help for meditation and experience?

No. It would be very difficult, if not impossible.

Words are the transmission of ideas and concepts. It is those ideas and concepts that leads to experiential moments through experimentation. If you could easily connect with the Force and reach enlightenment without words, you'd have no need of this place at all.

I am a consistent advocate of precise language here

Otherwise it's too easy to misinterpret.

I'm not saying your wrong or any of this is bad. Misinterpreting will always happen.

Grab some water. The tighter you squeez the more slips out.

If you could easily connect with the Force and reach enlightenment without words, you'd have no need of this place at all.

but you can't connect with just words either.

nevermind. i'm bored of this.

I see dancing in circles happening here.

Words are necessary.

They are not everything though.

But they are necessary.

But they are not the only thing needed for proper communication.

Single out words, without everything else that is connected to them and they are useless.

Take out words completely and there is no proper comprehension within the communication.

We get it.. (well I get it).

Words are important.

What words connect to are also important.

Message received.

Words? I love words. They are the brush stokes of communication. They are so plainly written with so much hidden in them.
We take what we want to see from them. Notice the sentence, We take what we want from them, we do not always take what was given in them.
Emotions are much harder to convey in words and that is why I love them. I love writing and hiding the emotion so plainly in a lyric then tie them together for a message. I see it like dance. We dance to music not a single note. We do not look at a painting and question a brush stroke.

Enter, the internet and message boards. Misunderstandings and arguements have been going on since their creation. Reason being is we, as humans, have a complex way of communication, far beyond words. The words are just the paint yet our actions and motions during delivery would be the brush that paints the picture. This makes the internet and forums a very poor tapestry for painting with words.

Is there a way around this problem? No not really, not yet. So be honest and straight forward. If you feel someone insults you ask them if they meant to do so. This is harder said than done because of egos and a natural reaction to defend.
I guess we just keep pushing forward.

Just my 2 cents.