Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight

Moderators: Adder, Desolous

Re:Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 23 Feb 2010 04:17 #29012

  • Br. John
  • Br. John's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Councillor
  • Bishop
  • ID: 523
Sweet Baby Jesus!
Founder of The Order

Re:Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 23 Feb 2010 05:43 #29016

OK Tatsujin - firstly - I NEVER once said wiki was authoritative - never have and never will, im fully aware of its open source operation - as are most if not all our readers (or at least the adult readers) - I said its accurate.

There are hundreds of possible sources for this information, including the main scouting group website.

Im English born n bred - so if it makes you feel cosy inside - lets put it this way - Im giving the english historical version of the founding of the scouting movement - which funnily enough happens to be the nationality of Powell.

Another point - I dont see any 'grey area' in terms of the history - we're talking late 19th/early 20th century here - not several hundred years ago.

Neither did I once say the scouts and military are the same - you dont seriously think im that ignorant do you? This temple has DOZENS of active service personal, from all the forces from many nationalities - and as many if not more ex-servicemen/women. TOTJO also has regular interaction with the military for various reasons - and whilst I personally have not served - every generation of my family up to the current HAS served King/Queen and country - and has so dating back some 800+ years - im well aware of how the military functions thank you.

As a side note - linked to above point about language - I went somewhat out of my way to 'defend' you or at least put it to everyone else that perhaps youd been misunderstood - im starting to think 'why did I bother'

Have you had enough of the masters in this thread because you dont like being challenged over your statements?

To be blunt - a number of your posts have been quite abrasive - generally I put this down to language differences and the limitations of text conversations - I tend to cut everyone slack (when they are new or reasonably new) just in case its 'new comers defensive syndrome' or something - yet in an earlier post, you said

Tatsujin wrote:
If anything would make me want to leave, it's being put in a position to explain myself any time I affirm what the order is doing because someone is used to being assailed by people who don't get it.


yet your doing exactly this to others time n again.

Youve also said your seen as opinionated/snobby etc - have you wondered why this is? Perhaps lines such as this

Tatsujin wrote:
The third thought that crosses my mind is that I'm an intellectual who can post with clarity and defend myself well. This comes off to most people as being overly opinionated and snobby, so I can gather that when combining the three thoughts would result in people not reading what I'm writing and assuming their way through.


will explain this.

Your not the only one to have run many sites, your not the only one with any level of intellect but from the little I have experienced of you thus far is mainly your guilty of everything your pointing at others for. Most of the longer standing members here treat 'attacks' like water off a duck back- everyone has a different perspective of everything, one persons 'fact' maybe another's fantasy - history is written by the victors as they say.

I certainly am not going to disagree with your final line.

So back on topic - I think in terms of ranks etc - those who are 'rank haters' maybe have not quite thought about what the rank means. Just because one does not appreciate why another has a rank or title should not mean that they have no respect to the individual. Of course, respect is a mutual thing, but if your in a place (physically or otherwise) where ranks are used - it is only good manners to use the appropriate titles etc. You would expect a 'guest' in your home to treat you with respect and abide by your rules - so its simple course to do the same - be it in a home, public building, website or other place.

From what ive seen elsewhere - the main cause of problems in this regard is lack of understanding of what the title or rank means - with the knowledge of what they mean and what the function of the title and or individual - one can often avoid looking foolish or worse - ignorant.

Yes, respect is two way traffic - but someone has to 'go first' - so by showing the appropriate respect - youll be off to a good start in a given situation. As said, there will always be the little hitlers - but they are easy to identify, just keep calm and polite but dont fuel their rage or ego - if necessary, walk away - it takes at least two to fight ;)

As a final note - I have one irritation in terms of ranks and titles - its folks who (as an example) INSIST on being called 'Major' or whatever - when the last time they were in active service was in WW2. OK, they earned the rank in the military at the time, but military and civilian life is very different - most civies wont understand the ranks anyway and its especially maddening to see/hear elderly 'Majors' (again an example) get cross with say a 20 year old for not using the title. Whats the point? they will have only legitimatly had the title for a couple or so years anyway and once out of service - is the 'rank' theirs toi use anyway?

Would a serving soldier now, follow an 'order' from a guy who was a major 60years ago? I very much doubt it - so why do such folk think others should treat them differently. If you really want the name used - get your name changed by law (deed poll in the UK)

This really does only serve to feed the ego of the title holder - and at the end of the day - its only a word, a badge - it has no actual value and like money - you cant take it with you.

Everyone is equal in death and within the force ;)

MTFBWY - A
"If you don't like or agree with the way we do things here, you know where the door is"

" What we do in life - echoes an eternity!"

Pastor Emeritus - Apprentice To Br John

Re:Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 24 Feb 2010 23:48 #29039

Wow Tatsujin you really carried this a long way since I was last on.

Maybe we should withdraw from this subject or change the subject?
Rahm Kota: "The Force is strong in you my boy, to be able to sense my thoughts..."
Cheshire Cat: Different denotes neither bad nor good, but it certainly means 'not the same'!

Re:Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 25 Feb 2010 00:11 #29040

  • stevef
  • stevef's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Knight
  • ID: 535
been on and off for a while, and I just noticed a clever post saying lets be respectful and call people by rank or title.
Wow, for a simple point this thread got really complicated... scouts and the UK and the military!

here's my rule of thumb and it seems to make sense:
if They are a master Call them Master X. I use the username in shout and the forums. If they are an apprentice call them Apprentice X or I think Padawan is acceptable to most. or Brother or Sister.
Knights Sir Madam or Brother Sister
If you and them are the same rank Brother or Sister is fine.
If you don't know and are too lazy to find out Brother or Sister.
Ya we can use the full title or multiple titles but it's less about who's what than being respectful of all of us. let me say that again, it's about respecting your fellow jedi.

if you look at the films, all the jedi were called by a title even by Palpatine, who hated them and wanted to destroy all jedi. If he can bite the bullet so can we.

but maybe I'm too simple to be in this conversation.

MTFBWY

Re:Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 25 Feb 2010 23:15 #29054

  • Jaden
  • Jaden's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Guest
  • ID: 1092
I been reading the whole thread and I would like to bring my small contribution in, saying what I think about ranks.

First of all I never see the rank, I see the person behind it and use the rank to get an idea about the amount of knowledge and work that person had until now. For instance I am an apprentice and it describes exactly what I am: a person that has more to learn in order to be able to teach others. As Kana Seiko Haruki said in one of the posts, a master is a normal human being which never looses the desire to learn and improve oneself for the good of others and make this world a better place.

We could put it this way: you call the one that gave you birth \"mother\". This is a rank. Before she gave birth she was a woman, she didn't knew how it feels and what it means to be a mother unless she had a child. This goes the same with our ranks: when you join in you know few things or maybe nothing about jediism. Later on as you learn your perception about life and other matters change, the ranks are there to remind of who you were and where you reached.

I personally see ranks as a tool to help new members and make the bound between members stronger. For instance when I will be called Master I wouldn't feel any different from what I feel now (it will just make me remember always about my duties and responsibilities I have towards the Temple and it's members)but I certainly know that a new member will come to me and ask for help because he/she would know that I am among those who know about TOTJO.

And yeah it's a matter of respect also. It's your choice if you want to use the ranks or not but I wonder if you would call your boss by his/her name, if you would call your school teacher by name and so on. As long as you see it JUST as a matter of respect you shouldn't feel offended yourself when others tell you to follow this simple rule and use the ranks.

Hope I managed to explain these things well as english is not my native language. Thanks for taking time to read this.

Re:Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 26 Feb 2010 23:22 #29062

  • Br. John
  • Br. John's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Councillor
  • Bishop
  • ID: 523
Yes you did Jaden very well indeed.
Founder of The Order

Re:Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 27 Feb 2010 22:48 #29068

  • Jestor
  • Jestor's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Councillor
  • Bishop
  • ID: 3682
The comparrison to 'mother'... awesome..

VERY well done Jaden....
Rite: PureLand
Master: Master Jasper_Ward
Former Apprentices: Knight Learn_To_Know
Current Apprentices: Viskhard, DanWerts, Elizabeth, Edan, Brenna

"I do not demand your faith; I am not setting myself up as an authority. I have nothing to teach you - no new philosophy, no new system, no new path to reality; there is no path to reality any more than to truth. All authority of any kind, especially in the field of thought and understanding, is the most destructive, evil thing. Leaders destroy the followers and followers destroy the leaders. You have to be your own teacher and your own disciple. You have to question everything that man has accepted as valuable, as necessary."~Krishnamurti~

"Wherever this leads, I DO like the idea of semi-nomadic symbolism. In truth, it speaks more from the heart of our decentralized culture.
We have no Pontiff, we have no Prophet...we have a loose confederation of independent people who agree upon fundamental symbols that we interpret in our own way according to our philosophy and spirituality.
Moreover, that is not a weakness - it remains our singular strength." ~Reacher~


Latest Posts Comments Articles
    • Moral Fact (Last post by OB1Shinobi)
    • its always good imo when people are encouraged to acknowledge that it is their responsibility to sort out what is true from what is untrue there may be better contextual foundations for this than fact/opnion but it worked well for me i realized that 99% of what the adults in my life thought were true were really just the repetition of what others had told them was true when they were young. the proccess may be more painful for some than for others but i expect the majority will come to the understanding that the choices are isolation or integration and isolation really is not possible without certain resources which can only be achieved through integration therefore integration is to some extent mandatory the consequences for treating society as if my wishes or needs are the only which matter can be harsh most will come to the understanding that stealing (for instance) is "wrong" or "bad" by the understanding that they dont want it to happen to them and of course while the morality of behavior may be relative the imposition of consequeses such as imprisonment is a FACT a person effectively guided to we their own belife system as a personal responsibility will come to see that consequenses exist for everything, even if you "get away" with cheating or stealing for a time, it is a factual experience that a life built on deception and exploitation eventually crumbles there may be exceptions to this, but from what i have seen they are very few, and given enough time i belive there are none also theres nothing wrong with beliving in opinions or making value judgements and this is something we all come to understand naturally but there is a huge difference between building our own value system based upon our own understanding and life experience, and attempting to live up to a value system we were given and told not to question the former is honest even when it is not maturely functional while the latter is both disingenuous and ultimately disfunctional; the difference between an heirloom and a handme down is that the heirloom was personally meaningful in a way that transcends momentary convenience a morality or belife system which is not by and large self developed is spiritually and intellectually much more of a handme down than an heirloom imo what is missing in the fact/opinion dichotomy is the third point of TRUTH two points make a line and a line can go on and on forever a third point makes a triangle and allows perspective to flow between varying positions it can be observed that personal understanding and personal interpretation are the "truths" by which we all live our lives and make our decisions which for all of us is a blend of what we know to be factually correct and what we feel to be emotionally real neither garantee perfection and more immediately niether factual verification nor emotional appeal exclusively offer a sure means of effective relationship with each other it really is true that all things are relative gravity works the same for a sucide jumper, a stealth fighter, a falcon, or a waterfall but the effects are highly subjective to each and are a result of personal or inherent inclination honestly i feel that the writer here is expressing an idea that is essentially sound i basically agree with his basic position but it seems to me that he is coming from a place internally that results from and appeals to personal fear and i refuse on principal to submit my conclusions of anything to the mandates of anyones fear, even my own fear is not a worthy guide for leading us to personal conclusions about truth or life or anything whatsoever but it is an excellent guide to a life of regrets and animosities and bitterness which is in fact my opinion about the moral fact of fear being an inadequate foundation for our personal opinions i almost think that statement alone could be the basis for his next article
    • The Imperishable Gem (Last post by Alexandre Orion)
    • "My great peace woman has only a single name : she is called universal justice, humaneness, active reason ... Her function, in accordance with her name and her nature, is to inculcate dispositions of peace." ~ John Gottfried Herder, Letters for the Advancement of Humanity (1793-1797)
    • Workout Check-In Thread (Last post by Jedi_Roz)
    • 15 mins on wiifit, yesterday five min meditation. ;-) it's a start. Finally starting to feel better again.
    • Questions (Last post by Kamizu)
    • Quote: O Describes a typical day and week for an active member I'm not sure there's anything typical about our time across the board. Nothing that the Temple dictates. Quote: O Describes typical monthly and yearly religious events (holidays, traditions, rites of passage, etc.) Religious events tend to be drawn from the traditions local to the members, and the companion religions they follow. Although I did find this, I haven't seen it closely followed by everyone: FAQ: Holy Days Quote: Describe rituals you may perform, daily tasks you must do, any paraphernalia you need to wear or carry around with you, religious celebrations, or anything else you can think of. These following answers are from me as an individual. Jediism is apart of me as well as everything else that *I* am so take these answers from me as an individual rather than what the Jedi do as a whole. Daily tasks I chose to do: give respect and honor to the spirits around me. Paraphernalia I chose to carry/wear: I have a small medicine pouch I carry around with me and I wear a pair of earrings that I made to help connect myself with my power animal. But I can't wear them at work :( Religious celebrations: I do some minor personal respects for the season markers. The starts of seasons and the mid-seasons. Otherwise the holidays are more cultural than religious. Quote: What do you do for your meditations? How long? Is it encourage or required to meditate every day? if not, how often? I have a nice toolbox full of different kinds of meditations that I'll use as I feel I need them or I feel my guides direct me towards but my favorite is doing Shamanic journeys. They last until I'm done but typically 5-10 minutes. Occasionally I'll do something for 15 minutes. I've been encouraged to meditate by my training master and when I went through the Initiate's Programme, it also had a little bit of meditation study. Although some people do meditate every day, it's up to the individual to decide what is a good schedule for them to follow. Quote: During your week, how often do you do things that pertain to your religion? Every day. I feel it is important to pay respects to the spirits around me. I can't say I do it EVERY MOMENT of every day but I try to remain mindful of them. Quote: Are there any celebrations unique to your religion? If so, what is it and what do you do for it? How often? Nope. That's left up to the individual Quote: Does one gender have a responsibility that the other does not? Nope. Quote: What do you do to become higher ranked? FAQ: Ranking Quote: Do you have a right of passage? Uh, kind of. The ranks I guess. Let me know if you have anymore questions :D
    • 5 rights women have that men don't (Last post by Goken)
    • Quote: The real 5 rights women have that men will never have... 1 - The right to change there mind...OFTEN! Without repercussions! 2 - The right to blame men for everything wrong in the world..including PMS and how her cloths don't fit! 3 - The right to have a man pay for everything and then take him for half his pension in the divorce! 4 - The right to change every word you say in a compliment, to a negative insult! 5 - The right to use sex as a bargaining chip for every imaginable argument. God I Love Women! That's the real kicker, I really do! Hahahaha! Love it. Frequently if I complain about my fiance doing these things one of my friends will just look over at me and say "That is why I'm gay!" And women can express more in one glance than men can in entire novels. The tricky part is that men don't seem to be able to understand any of it. :laugh:
    • Jediism and Psionics (Telekinesis, ESP, Empathy, e... (Last post by GalUnDrux)
    • Namaste Jedi, For many of my years i have been fascinated by the possibility of TK (Tele-Kinesis) and other forms of PK (Psycho-Kinesis) and whilst growing up through my teens and early 20's i would search and search for info related to the development of TK.. amongst other things, i found Qi Gong energy cultivation exercises and a few videos related to whats called a Psi-Wheel but nothing really tangible, until i found this website the other month.. psychicinvestigation.forumotion.com/ I have always had a telepathic connection with my family and close friends and over the last couple of years i have noticed an increase in my creativity and my ability whilst meditation to access what feels like a higher creative zone has really helped understanding the "layout" of the metaphysical universe, specifically how thought works on the higher dimensions, aswel as doing energy cultivation techniques daily, i feel TK is very much within my grasp.. although i have not had any success yet with a Psi-Wheel, i have had some success with sensing the energy of inanimate objects, more so my crystals and my lightsabre :)... So, i highly recommend that forum - even if just for fun! :)
    • Is questioning one's faith inevitable? (Last post by Akkarin)
    • In an episode of House M.D (Season 2 Episode 19 - House vs God) a faith healer comes in and at one point refuses treatment on the basis of his beliefs. House asks Dr Wilson to help and Dr Wilson makes the argument that one of the hall marks of a saint is humility, a saint would have to consider that they could be wrong even if they believed they were right. The faith healer agrees to the treatment.
    • TotJO Programming Thread (Last post by den385)
    • Thank you, Adder! I know the main thing I love in programming: building healthy systems of relationships. But this goes beyond code. Now I got a job of a developer in a sense that there'll be more high-level design issues. I hope to find some aspects that will allow me to use my humanitarian skills more. Pure programming is way too rational for me. I am 50/50 humanitarian/technical and I suffer when the balance is 90% technical as it is in programming. Also, for me it is important not only how to work (Jedi Way) and what to work (career choice, balance between skills), but also where to work (an opportunity to make Jedi Way more substantial in job). I do think it is hard to be satisfied with a job in helping people, in purpose. But purpose is one of aspects of productivity. I do not think we can ignore it - neither as professionals, nor of course as Jedi.
    • Real World Jedi (Last post by OB1Shinobi)
    • this interview is about 45 - 50 minutes the link says "economic-finance" that's incorrect this interview is about being awesome www.khanacademy.org/economics-finance-do...ats/v/sean-osullivan
    • The Grateful Thread (Last post by Ratcliffe)
    • I am grateful for today or perhaps more to the point I am grateful that, thanks to the temple, I finally get that all I have is now. The peace that brings me is perhaps the first I have ever know and for that I am not able to language my appreciation.
    • Your meditation routine (Last post by Kitsu Tails)
    • Quote: I'm interested to discover what routines others here have for meditation Step One: Put the Kids to bed Step Two: Plug up the Tub and turn the hot water on to....as hot as possible. Step Three: Go get a towel, candle, book and bottle of water Step Four: Dump a bunch of Bath Salts into tub Step Five: Get in, adding cold water until water is comfortable Step Six: Take off my glasses and sink under the water until ears and eyes are covered (But still able to breathe above the surface Step Seven: breath in deeply Step Eight: Breath out completely Repeat until relaxed and content Step Nine: Read a book and drink the full bottle of water (Completely) Step ten: get out when the water is too cold to be comfortable anymore :laugh:
    • "Soteriology" within the Jedi Path (Last post by J. K. Barger)
    • Well made points gents. I like what you have brought forth. We all seem to be familiar with the idea of a reward for our actions, and how we can be motivated (or not- maybe even downright anti-authoritarian :evil: ) based on a future idea of what is to come. I also like how we've mentioned the contrast between "salvation" in the Abrahamic sense and "enlightenment" in the Dharmic sense. While both share the noble aim of making our immediate lives better, they both have slightly differing orientations- after embodiment and during embodiment. As a Zen practitioner, Death is often employed as the "Great Matter" to teach us how to make the whole of Zen applicable to ourselves now- IMMEDIATELY. Aligning with the Taoist tendencies in Zen, we could almost say (in hindsight it seems), that "we are already enlightened" or that we "are already saved"; but this begs the question, just as Dogen himself asked, "If we are already enlightened/saved, what is the point/purpose of 'practice'"? If we already ARE..., why would we...? (You fill in the blanks according to your preference) Now seeing how the Jedi Path holds both of these as valid soteriological goals (that is, Enlightenment and Salvation), do we use the respective traditional terms of "suffering and enlightenment" / "Sin and Salvation" to expound the Jedi Path, or do we use different language? How do the Jedi in fiction describe their path? What is the Point, the Great Matter of the Jedi/the Force? ----- On a persoanl note, I tend to follow a non-dualist stance. While soteriology looks like it is an introspective method for Dualists, as a non-dualist, I still see its value in a "catch-22" way; that is, both "salvation" and "already saved" are essential unified and that one informs the other. Take Dzogchen teachings for example; it initial teaches you about the innate luminosity of mind (we are already enlightened), but "further training" is used if you miss this fundamental teaching, i.e., the subsequent teachings are more gross, tangible, and 'further' from the truth, but nonetheless ARE the truth and it's path. This method of training recognizes the limits of soteriology and its methods while simultaneously valuing its contributions as a necessary part of the Path. As a Jedi, I think this helps us identify what we are working "towards" in our tradition as a whole Order and as individuals working out our own paths. I think if we can answer this in distinctly "Jedi terms" (whatever those come to be or are), we have the nuts and bolts of both Jedi training and the clerical imperative- both of which are closely related. MTFBWY

There are 217 visitors, 7 guests and 35 members online (4  in chat): Akkarin, RyuJin, Jestor, Kitsu Tails, Adhara, LTK, Darren, The_Lukeev, Proteus, Luthien, V-Tog, Alexandre Orion, Elemental Harmony, MCSH, Llama Su, Kamizu, Edan, Silvermane, Rick D, Pyrus Erath, WithTheForce, Jamie Stick, Goken, GalUnDrux, Slebo, Cyan Sarden, OB1Shinobi, Sha Karn, Aslyn, MikeAxis, smirq, Atticus509, nelonadam, GreySong, PJT, jonasalarsen.

Follow Us