Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight

Moderators: Adder, Desolous

Re:Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 23 Feb 2010 04:17 #29012

  • Br. John
  • Br. John's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Councillor
  • Bishop
  • ID: 523
Sweet Baby Jesus!
Founder of The Order

Re:Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 23 Feb 2010 05:43 #29016

OK Tatsujin - firstly - I NEVER once said wiki was authoritative - never have and never will, im fully aware of its open source operation - as are most if not all our readers (or at least the adult readers) - I said its accurate.

There are hundreds of possible sources for this information, including the main scouting group website.

Im English born n bred - so if it makes you feel cosy inside - lets put it this way - Im giving the english historical version of the founding of the scouting movement - which funnily enough happens to be the nationality of Powell.

Another point - I dont see any 'grey area' in terms of the history - we're talking late 19th/early 20th century here - not several hundred years ago.

Neither did I once say the scouts and military are the same - you dont seriously think im that ignorant do you? This temple has DOZENS of active service personal, from all the forces from many nationalities - and as many if not more ex-servicemen/women. TOTJO also has regular interaction with the military for various reasons - and whilst I personally have not served - every generation of my family up to the current HAS served King/Queen and country - and has so dating back some 800+ years - im well aware of how the military functions thank you.

As a side note - linked to above point about language - I went somewhat out of my way to 'defend' you or at least put it to everyone else that perhaps youd been misunderstood - im starting to think 'why did I bother'

Have you had enough of the masters in this thread because you dont like being challenged over your statements?

To be blunt - a number of your posts have been quite abrasive - generally I put this down to language differences and the limitations of text conversations - I tend to cut everyone slack (when they are new or reasonably new) just in case its 'new comers defensive syndrome' or something - yet in an earlier post, you said

Tatsujin wrote:
If anything would make me want to leave, it's being put in a position to explain myself any time I affirm what the order is doing because someone is used to being assailed by people who don't get it.


yet your doing exactly this to others time n again.

Youve also said your seen as opinionated/snobby etc - have you wondered why this is? Perhaps lines such as this

Tatsujin wrote:
The third thought that crosses my mind is that I'm an intellectual who can post with clarity and defend myself well. This comes off to most people as being overly opinionated and snobby, so I can gather that when combining the three thoughts would result in people not reading what I'm writing and assuming their way through.


will explain this.

Your not the only one to have run many sites, your not the only one with any level of intellect but from the little I have experienced of you thus far is mainly your guilty of everything your pointing at others for. Most of the longer standing members here treat 'attacks' like water off a duck back- everyone has a different perspective of everything, one persons 'fact' maybe another's fantasy - history is written by the victors as they say.

I certainly am not going to disagree with your final line.

So back on topic - I think in terms of ranks etc - those who are 'rank haters' maybe have not quite thought about what the rank means. Just because one does not appreciate why another has a rank or title should not mean that they have no respect to the individual. Of course, respect is a mutual thing, but if your in a place (physically or otherwise) where ranks are used - it is only good manners to use the appropriate titles etc. You would expect a 'guest' in your home to treat you with respect and abide by your rules - so its simple course to do the same - be it in a home, public building, website or other place.

From what ive seen elsewhere - the main cause of problems in this regard is lack of understanding of what the title or rank means - with the knowledge of what they mean and what the function of the title and or individual - one can often avoid looking foolish or worse - ignorant.

Yes, respect is two way traffic - but someone has to 'go first' - so by showing the appropriate respect - youll be off to a good start in a given situation. As said, there will always be the little hitlers - but they are easy to identify, just keep calm and polite but dont fuel their rage or ego - if necessary, walk away - it takes at least two to fight ;)

As a final note - I have one irritation in terms of ranks and titles - its folks who (as an example) INSIST on being called 'Major' or whatever - when the last time they were in active service was in WW2. OK, they earned the rank in the military at the time, but military and civilian life is very different - most civies wont understand the ranks anyway and its especially maddening to see/hear elderly 'Majors' (again an example) get cross with say a 20 year old for not using the title. Whats the point? they will have only legitimatly had the title for a couple or so years anyway and once out of service - is the 'rank' theirs toi use anyway?

Would a serving soldier now, follow an 'order' from a guy who was a major 60years ago? I very much doubt it - so why do such folk think others should treat them differently. If you really want the name used - get your name changed by law (deed poll in the UK)

This really does only serve to feed the ego of the title holder - and at the end of the day - its only a word, a badge - it has no actual value and like money - you cant take it with you.

Everyone is equal in death and within the force ;)

MTFBWY - A

Re:Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 24 Feb 2010 23:48 #29039

Wow Tatsujin you really carried this a long way since I was last on.

Maybe we should withdraw from this subject or change the subject?
Rahm Kota: "The Force is strong in you my boy, to be able to sense my thoughts..."
Cheshire Cat: Different denotes neither bad nor good, but it certainly means 'not the same'!

Re:Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 25 Feb 2010 00:11 #29040

  • stevef
  • stevef's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Knight
  • ID: 535
been on and off for a while, and I just noticed a clever post saying lets be respectful and call people by rank or title.
Wow, for a simple point this thread got really complicated... scouts and the UK and the military!

here's my rule of thumb and it seems to make sense:
if They are a master Call them Master X. I use the username in shout and the forums. If they are an apprentice call them Apprentice X or I think Padawan is acceptable to most. or Brother or Sister.
Knights Sir Madam or Brother Sister
If you and them are the same rank Brother or Sister is fine.
If you don't know and are too lazy to find out Brother or Sister.
Ya we can use the full title or multiple titles but it's less about who's what than being respectful of all of us. let me say that again, it's about respecting your fellow jedi.

if you look at the films, all the jedi were called by a title even by Palpatine, who hated them and wanted to destroy all jedi. If he can bite the bullet so can we.

but maybe I'm too simple to be in this conversation.

MTFBWY

Re:Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 25 Feb 2010 23:15 #29054

  • Jaden
  • Jaden's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Guest
  • ID: 1092
I been reading the whole thread and I would like to bring my small contribution in, saying what I think about ranks.

First of all I never see the rank, I see the person behind it and use the rank to get an idea about the amount of knowledge and work that person had until now. For instance I am an apprentice and it describes exactly what I am: a person that has more to learn in order to be able to teach others. As Kana Seiko Haruki said in one of the posts, a master is a normal human being which never looses the desire to learn and improve oneself for the good of others and make this world a better place.

We could put it this way: you call the one that gave you birth \"mother\". This is a rank. Before she gave birth she was a woman, she didn't knew how it feels and what it means to be a mother unless she had a child. This goes the same with our ranks: when you join in you know few things or maybe nothing about jediism. Later on as you learn your perception about life and other matters change, the ranks are there to remind of who you were and where you reached.

I personally see ranks as a tool to help new members and make the bound between members stronger. For instance when I will be called Master I wouldn't feel any different from what I feel now (it will just make me remember always about my duties and responsibilities I have towards the Temple and it's members)but I certainly know that a new member will come to me and ask for help because he/she would know that I am among those who know about TOTJO.

And yeah it's a matter of respect also. It's your choice if you want to use the ranks or not but I wonder if you would call your boss by his/her name, if you would call your school teacher by name and so on. As long as you see it JUST as a matter of respect you shouldn't feel offended yourself when others tell you to follow this simple rule and use the ranks.

Hope I managed to explain these things well as english is not my native language. Thanks for taking time to read this.

Re:Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 26 Feb 2010 23:22 #29062

  • Br. John
  • Br. John's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Councillor
  • Bishop
  • ID: 523
Yes you did Jaden very well indeed.
Founder of The Order

Re:Grand Masters, Masters, Senior Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 27 Feb 2010 22:48 #29068

  • Jestor
  • Jestor's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Councillor
  • Bishop
  • ID: 3682
The comparrison to 'mother'... awesome..

VERY well done Jaden....
Rite: PureLand
Master: Master Jasper_Ward
Former Apprentices: Knight Learn_To_Know
Current Apprentices: Viskhard, DanWerts, Elizabeth, Edan, Brenna

"I do not demand your faith; I am not setting myself up as an authority. I have nothing to teach you - no new philosophy, no new system, no new path to reality; there is no path to reality any more than to truth. All authority of any kind, especially in the field of thought and understanding, is the most destructive, evil thing. Leaders destroy the followers and followers destroy the leaders. You have to be your own teacher and your own disciple. You have to question everything that man has accepted as valuable, as necessary."~Krishnamurti~

Latest Posts Comments Articles
    • The Grateful Thread (Last post by Proteus)
    • As much as my patience is constantly tested by them, I am grateful to have a neighbor who helps me get certain important things done. For that, I do my best to set aside my differences. Not dependence... Interdependence.
    • Insight Timer app for meditation (Last post by Cyan Sarden)
    • If you're doing the IP and would like to meditate on Alan Watt's ideas, I found this guided meditation in the Insight Timer app to be quite amazing: 'discovering the uncharted territory'. I found the meditative state this left me in quite frightening the first time around, though - felt a bit like falling off a cliff. But then, Watts' ideas of the "Self" aren't exactly easy to swallow :-)
    • Dream job? (Last post by Goken)
    • Happy to be of service. It sounds like you have a pretty good idea of what you're going to do. Aerospace Engineering sounds awesome (although way too difficult in math terms for me LOL). I'm sure that you're interest will carry you far. May the Force be with you on this next phase of your path. B)
    • Thanksgiving Origins- Does it Matter? (Last post by steamboat28)
    • Spoiler: Quote: Quote: Yeah, you seem to miss a lot. Yes, mea culpa, I'm in an openly obtuse relationship with the world... However, to be fair to me, I've never met an unbiased human. As I've not met you, I can't yet clear the bucket list, but I'm pleased to at least be able to claim I've encountered a truly unbiased human. It is truly a great honour, thank you. Shakespeare keeps popping to mind tho... I'll have to figure out why. Beyond that, consider me well warned. I'll be certain never to interpret anything you post in less than completely orthodox terms ;) Children, please behave. It's the holiday season for some of us, and we have to deal with enough bickering from family as it is. If you'd like to continue your conversation about personal bias and ad hominem explorations, I would politely request that you do so somewhere private, or perhaps on another thread. As I am personally biased on the original topic for multiple reasons, I'm interested in how this discussion will play out. Thanks.
    • Workout Check-In Thread (Last post by Edan)
    • Day 71 checking in Finally feeling well enough to run again. Been about a week since I last ran so I didn't make the 8k today, but I did get to 7k which was good enough for me. Struggled near the end to get enough breath in.. not sure what that was about. Ran for about 50 minutes. Best track of the run was Labyrinth was Oomph! Will have to rethink my training plan though because a friend has signed me up for a half marathon :/
    • Historical Discoveries (Last post by Edan)
    • Ancient Egyptian Handbook of Spells Discovered (For those interested..the Seth mentioned is not the Egyptian god Seth). Full article can be found here
    • Man vs Environment (Last post by den385)
    • Intro There is a short story by A.Chekhov, "Ionych", in which one of his favorite themes - the man vs. the environment - reaches it's apogee. [SPOILER!] A young doctor comes to a small (russian) town, where nobody cares about art or spiritual virtues but only about money and low forms of pleasure. First, he wants to escape. Then, he loses his ideals and becomes fat and greedy. Nobody calls him by his name anymore, he becomes one with an ugly nickname "Ionych" - the vulgar form of his second (patronymic) name. Problem It's coherent with my current day job: * The software product on which I'm working is awful. Everybody in company knows it. * People are demotivated totally. Some are bored, while others are toxic and poisonous. * Wage is inadequate and irregular. Everybody knows it. I considered leaving about a 100 times, but I need to stay and overcome for about 6 months more: * I need to improve my skill (in hours after work) to gain confidence to get a decent one * I need to improve finances, so that I can manage a month-or-so in between two jobs * I need to improve my employment history * I need to gather more psychological strength and stability I can't change circumstances, but I can change my perception. Psychological melting of the problem into a task * "Your focus determines your reality." -- the Franchise * You lose your heart, you lose your reason. You lose your reason, you lose your balance. You lose your balance and then the dark side strikes. * The Jedi Way is more that of a ninja than of a boxer - exchanging punches with circumstances is just a stupid waste of time. * We are the Jedi. We hover above the grip of routine, for we know that routine exists only in clouded mind. * There is nothing usual. There are no bad jobs. There are no bad people. These are merely labels of unfocused mind. * Any environment affects you only if you let it. That's an exercise in Focus for me - that is why Force directed me here. To learn Focus. Solution I'm a programmer and programming is all about breaking big problems into manageable pieces: wage, people, job tasks. * Wage. That's not the biggest piece of a problem. But, nevertheless I have a cunning plan to deal with it safely. * People. Programmers are not obliged to talk, yet I'm an extrovert. And I want to communicate with colleagues. I have to identify those people that are of another breed. I know them. Not those who are just bored of job or see it as a day job, but those who are aggressive in the thesis that all jobs are shit, all clients are shit, all bosses are shit, our craft is shit. That I can not tolerate. That I will not tolerate. They have something rotten in them and it's like a late stage of a disease when you have to make titanic labor to save a patient even if he wants to be cured. But I can not help those who seek no help. When I try to inspire them, they attack my true dreams and my love for software craft with poison. May the Force guide them to peace. * Job tasks. In programming, everything is easy when you know your "system". And that is a tough moment. There are those who would like you to be a silent and productive tool without having a mastery over your field of work. There is a tendency to foster "specialists", not Masters. Short-sighted managers tend to think that you have to use a person as much as you can and then throw 'em out without giving a thought about professional education. This trend plays good when you need to substitute one human gear with another. It is in symbiosis with short-time employments. With lack of loyalty, trust and purpose. But there is another stream in professional life: to let workers perfect themselves. And I strongly believe in it. Mastery, purpose and autonomy are identified as primary motivators for developers. So, within one job I can follow the easy way - dare not to study the product thoroughly and be a quite tool. Or I can follow the right way - assert my right to mastery. My right is true, for I am the one who is responsible for my performance and it's optimization. Then, I become a worker. This difference for me is very concrete: I've managed to cut out some time before to draw schemes - a map of our product. But I never was sure I have a right to cut out this time from immediate tasks, even though this schemes are the only thing that helps me handle them in time aside from joy. Now I am and I will spend as much of the paid time on learning product as I will consider reasonable and neat. Without it, I would never solve such complex problems others dare not think of. That is my quest towards mastery. Fin Thanks. Wish I was more eloquent & brief. Hope someone gets through all these hell-of-a-lot-of-letters. ) May the Force be with you, always.
    • Caffeine before meditation (Last post by Rickie The Grey)
    • I occasionally wake up early before the sun rises. I make a cup of coffee, sit in a chair, with no lights on in the room, facing a south window. I sip my warm coffee, close my eyes and focus on the warm liquid as I swallow. As the warmth dissipates I open my eyes to watch the sky lighten up with the dawn. I let my thoughts flow freely and reflect on what ever comes to mind. I then take another sip and repeate until my coffee is gone or cold. This is a very mellowing experience for me. Watching the day brighten gradually is quite centering and peacefull for me.
    • The Role of Logic (Last post by Rickie The Grey)
    • Quote: I've found this true more often than not, unfortunately, and I'm curious as to why people so easily and readily dismiss logic as something extraneous or unnecessary. What percent of the population do you think believe this? There are people that want to believe what they want to believe. Just as there are people that find security and confidence in logic. Weither it's emotional or ignorance that's what makes the world go round. To each their own.
    • Exploring the Religious Naturalist Option (Last post by steamboat28)
    • Quote: Quote: II thought the link was going to be about nudity!! "Naturism, or nudism, is a cultural and political movement practicing, advocating and defending social nudity, most of which takes place on private property. " But seriously, yes it sounds familiar ;) You can probably guess I'm going to wonder if the 3 Pillars or 3 Tenets align with intepretive, spiritual and moral modalities :silly: Naturalists like natural things. Naturists like getting back to "nature" lol. That's how I remember it :P Though, to be fair, I'm really surprised there's not a Naturist Naturalist religion making it's way across the world loudly.
    • Friendly weight loss challenge (Last post by steamboat28)
    • Quote: Alot of people actually dont know this fact...but you also need cardio for it to work... It's a different combination for everybody That's one of the reasons I have chosen HIIT as my primary exercise technique. Keeps my heartrate up without the dullness of traditional cardio, and I can still get the weight training (or bodyweight training) in. I've just had too many cupcakes recently to be a poster child for its success. lol
    • Conscription - Draft (Last post by Ecthalion)
    • Quote: a certain amount of conformity is not only beneficial, but necessary to an ordered society. Free thought is nice, but without at least some conformity, civilization descends into anarchy. An anarchy which sees needs unmet, and which will, eventually, turn back into order via conformity. I see your point - a modicum of conformity is needed, just a tad. Without free-thought though we'd have made no progress at all. But this thread is going off subject...
    • Did You Know? (Last post by SeventhSL)
    • Quote: That's a little deceptive on account of this being only a theoretical fact. The math works out, but it has never been observed to occur in nature. Just wondering why you say it is still theoretical? It has been repeatedly done now according to numerous articles I've read. What am I missing? To use the same source as the original post: http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/earth/geophysics/can-we-manufacture-matter.htm

There are 336 visitors, 5 guests and 35 members online (one in chat): Akkarin, Br. John, steamboat28, Angelus, Jestor, Joe, Connor L., Adder, Proteus, Alexandre Orion, Rosalyn J, Alan, Vusuki, Arcade, Brenna, Llama Su, Kamizu, Edan, SilverWolf, Zenchi, Aviator, Frost, Amans-in-lucem, Calanon, Cabur Senaar, SeventhSL, Goken, GalUnDrux, Exarchias, RaB, Paradox, almosteasy69.

Follow Us