An Official-in-waiting who had just rented a house in Hufangqiao Road in the capital was informed, “A fox lives in this house. You will not be disturbed if you offer a sacrifice before you move in.” Being a tightfisted man, he refused, but nothing unusual happened when he moved in. Shortly afterward he married a concubine. Received into his house on the wedding day, she was sitting alone in the room when she heard dozens of whispering voices outside the window commenting on her looks. Bashfully she kept her head lowered. When they went to bed that night after blowing out the candle, the whole room was suddenly filled with giggles. The moment he made a move, it was described in a loud voice. Several nights passed like this. Unable to bear it any longer, he went to a Taoist priest asking him to exorcise the fox. After hearing him out the priest said, “Only when a demon has harmed people can I invoke the heavenly gods to seize it and punish it. If the demon has merely been playing a prank without causing much harm, there is no need for divine intervention. Likewise, the government does not take any action against someone for playing a prank without causing real trouble. How can you bother the gods with such a trivial matter?” At the end of his rope, the official-in-waiting offered a sacrifice and libation to the fox. That very night his room became quiet. He said with a deep sigh, “Now I understand the importance of social etiquette!”

Now I know this is not going to go down well with a number of people here, but I am going to take that risk any way out of the simple fact that we are TEMPLE OF THE JEDI TEMPLE and not called for example PALS INCORPORATED. All of us are here to broadern our horizons; some wish even to learn the Jedi way, be knighted and even hope to guide others as Masters. So just as we take people`s desire to learn seriously so should those who have worked hard to carry the title of Master be addressed as such whether in shout, forum or PM (unless expressed otherwise by the addresse). For a long time this has been in use, was possible and still is the case.

There is almost nothing that makes a person seems crass and undignified as a lack of simple manners. I finished college in my forties and new some of my teachers as friends and customers. Even though we were on a fist name bases and some were younger than I - in class I always addressed them as professor or with the proper title.

Being from the South I'm steeped in the virtues of Southern Hospitality and for good measure my Mothers family are all from Sibley. There are just things that a genteel person does not do or does do as the case may be.

And what Master Jon is telling you sir, young lad, lady ,little miss is that this is for YOU not for him.

If you want to be respected as a Jedi much less as a decent human being a little magic goes a long way.

Anyway you don't want the thrill of one day perhaps being invited to be on a first name basis - do you?

Rather interesting and pointed post Master Jon. Like Br. John I too was raised with the \"SouthernL hospitality and from time to time get corrected by my mum and grandparents when I speak of their friends without the honorific Mr. Or Mrs. I understand that but also understand it is becoming a trait that is lost on the younger generations. Which is unfortunate. These people who are older or have earned their rank should be addressed as such, unless otherwise directed by that person.

Tiamat wrote:
i was raised in the backwoods south where most people didn't like mr. or mrs. when in their presence i would address them in the manner they requested. i used mr. or mrs. when dealing with my teachers, in college i call my professors by professor unless they say otherwise but use mr. or mrs. when talking about them to someone else. growing up no one around me ever thought it to be disprespectful to call someone outside the family by first name as it made them part of the family. it was simply a matter of judgement on whether mr. or mrs. was needed in a particular situation...in the end it's a matter of personal preference from the individual that determines how they're addressed.

The rule only tends to hold true for those who:

1. ...have something to lose (rank, title, etc.).
2. ...should know better because it's been explained to them.
3. ...have an example to follow.

I thank you, Grand Master Jon, my Master, for keeping this open for posting. Though I am neither making a demand nor trying to \"run the show\" or anything like that, these were what I was taught and the seem (to me) be reasonable.

However, the above rules suggest that the responsibility lies in those who are ranked addressing one another by rank, even equals. But there is a danger that I see, as well. It is the attachment to the title and rank, and its associated power and authority. While I will do as you ask, could you respond to this aspect, so that I might understand it better?

I have noticed that you have proposed this issue of attachment to titles very often RedHeron, which from my point of view indicates that you have some kind of issue with or experiences involving titles. I am not aware of any personal attachment to titles or fears of loosing it, so unfortunately I am unable to respond to that. What I am really afraid of loosing is my job and not being able to feed my daughter or provide a good education. I can however tell you about the amount of commitment, time and money invested in TOTJO which involves being a Master, the less obvious side which doesn`t seem to be the cause of much thought or scandal. As I already said this is Temple of the Jedi Order, a Jedi spirituality, a Jedi system of philosophy, which (as FAQ) clearly explains includes yes titles but also their DUTIES. Everyone of us is a guest here in a house if you like, this is a priveledge and not a right. Or which house do you walk into and dictate the way things are to be run because you don`t like it? It is all about respect, understanding why we are here, giving as much as we can for the benefit of others and keeping your feet firmly grounded on the floor of reality.

Apprentice Redheron, if I may a moment. Most of us Masters, Knights relgate the notations of rank with one another for in past issues it has confused new members and has often been the cause of disrespect.

I can tell you from my POV, I request new members to address me by my title until I and they have come to know one another. Not out of basis for rank or title but out of basis for respect. After a time the rank becomes a nonissue with those that have known each other. For instance when I speak with your Master, I call him by his name and the same with Br. John for we have built a repoire of friendship. This is not meant to create attachments to titles or rank, but with an Order this size, a line of \"succession or order\" is necessary.

Many here holding rank do not tend to naturally hold their titles for it is just that a title. It is the actions and words of those members who define them and not their rank.

The issue with attachment to titles is indeed an experience of my own. I have both seen and (regrettably) committed abuses because of such attachment in the past (and luckily, was able to somewhat remedy the damage when I realized it). But I also tend to follow the examples I am given (point #3 on the list I wrote). I have explained my understanding and beliefs; it was not my intent to make a demand, but to understand the demand which has been made, and to avoid my own issues with regard to titles and ranks. It was not intended as an affront, or to disrespect the obvious level of commitment you have.

My question is still unanswered, Master Jon, and so I'm going to try to rephrase it:

How are we to proceed without attachment to a title, if titles of rank are the primary means of address?

I have taken no disresect from this post, but find that clarity of the knowledge or answer you seek to be a good thing. If one is to understand one just needs to ask, but bear in mind it may not always be the answer you sought.

The attachment to titles question is reasonable and there's an answer.

Attachment to titles by masters there may be in some but it's about helping students develop new good habits or reminding them of old ones. A Jedi has a certain dignity that includes being a pleasant person.

It's a small token to ask and even smaller to pay folks who are helping you get something at no cost or demand.