OK Here is the deal. We all have our beliefs. Its just that beliefs are just ideas that we embrace. Morals and guidelines we accept and impose on ourselves. You make points that make sense to you... To criticize beliefs that are safe and for those who practice them is not our way.

Jediism accepts the 5th rite, the Sith rite or whatever name is placed on it. There are many loyal members are there and there is little difference between them and those of the other rites.

I have studied the rites and religions, we all need balance. The Force is color blind, the user decides on how to use the Force through their own actions. I, Myself am a Gray Jedi, a Shadow Jedi or whatever name you want to call that. I use and feel i have an understanding of both, while I tend to lean more to the lighter side of things, being a healer, my affinity to the dark side is not unknown to me.

One of the most devoted Jedi I know is a member of the 5th rite and would do anything for a fellow Jedi in need.

I would seriously observe the actions of all the 5th rite before denouncing them as dangerous.

To answer your question though, a thin that is too good. Here are a couple: too much mercy for a killer, a rapist actually allowed back in society, not allowing someone to die in peace by way of ventilator when they wish to die, etc.

So to condemn the 5th rite, especially without facing it and understanding it, is foolish and headstrong. I understand you are seeing something that is predisposed as possible evil. However as Jedi we seek to improve ourselves in different ways and we dont always agree on the path, but so long as it doesn't cause harm to another or the Jedi, who are we to judge or tell them they are wrong?

I respect your views, but I would encourage you look more in depth at the 5th rite, and the rest of them. We as humans are not infallible, nor are we evil by nature, we are just humans and before we are in any of the rites we are all Jedi. Protectors, defenders, and actions speak louder than words. I am at your disposal, if you have any questions or want to just talk about this. Please use the contact info on my temple page.

Again, much respect.
Zanthan Storm.

Master Zanthan, I could not agree with you more in your comments. There are several within the 5th that are like that. Just because a person is dark does not make them evil.

Lol. Br. Lead Farmer I do remember Br. Tom and our discussions. In fact that is what I thought of when entering this rich discussion. And no DK I haven`t forgotten what I`ve learnt or know;) . Br. Zanthan spoke wisely, that really hit me. Thank you for that. Indeed everyone has their path to follow. The 5th here is not what it is outside. Nor do the 5th take responsability for what they believe.

Wow. I obviously touched a nerve. On several people.

In my own defense, I don't recall ever criticizing anyone of the 5th rite as such. I began this post warning of the dangers of playing with fire, fire being the analogy for the Dark Side in my initial posting.

Where Master Azrel () is concerned, it was not my intention to attack you, and my apologies if it came across that way. I simply took your definition of the Dark Side as such and asked then, by your definition not mine, how you considered yourself a darksider.

So far, there seems to be some misunderstanding as to what I believe to be the Dark Side. I thought I had made it clear, perhaps I did not. there also seems to be some presumption as to what I think about certain so called moral or immoral acts.

I do not believe any action to be moral or immoral as such. I believe such ideas as right and wrong per se originated with what is, in my Faith, the fall of man. I believe that mankind upon that fall effectively malfunctioned, and part of that malfunction was the idea of \"right and wrong\". a good example of this is the idea of nudity being somehow immoral or wrong. Every other animal on the planet is buck naked. None of them seem shy about it or have any problems with it. Our own \"animal\" ancestors were also likely buck naked up until around 75,000 years ago. No problems. Why then was the first thing which was declared as immoral something which was as natural and normal as using the woods as a toilet? This alone should clue people in as to the fallibility of mankind's \"morality meter\".

Nevertheless every action, thought, word, or intent has a consequence to it. Selfish actions tend to have harmful consequences to someone. Selfless actions tend to have beneficial consequences to someone. And you are right, sometimes there does seem to be a grey area. This is why I don't tend to look at things in terms of right or wrong, but in terms of either selfishness or compassion. Is taking something that doesn't belong to you wrong? It all depends on the motivations behind it and the willingness to accept the repercussions of it. Is taking a life wrong? Again, it depends on the circumstances surrounding it. Is it for selfish, self serving reasons, or is it for compassionate reasons?

Master Azrel, you brought up the subject of Hell briefly in one of your last posts. I personally believe that both Eternal Life and Hell are states of being which one begins here and it simply continues after the death of the body. Whether or not one goes to heaven or hell largely depends on whether or not they are there right now in their own life and walk. I have seen people of both dispositions, and it has less to do with breaking or keeping a moral code as it does one's own inner peace or inner turmoil as the case may be.It is not my place to make that determination for anyone as I am utterly unqualified to decide on another person's own internal state.

In asking you about your definition of the Dark Side I simply wanted you to reason it through. You did this and came up with the conclusion that you are sitting on the fence and have not completely crossed over. Few people, except the aforementioned and unconquerable DK perhaps, would actually admit to or embrace the definition of the Dark Side you gave as being a desirable path.

My definition of the Dark Side, as I thought I posted and perhaps I didn't, is when one is Selfish and Self Serving. When one's cravings and desires are more important to them then the needs and desires of other people. When one determines that they alone are truly right and whatever point of view which does not fall into line with theirs must be eliminated, along with the person holding it if necessary, this is truly the Dark Side. When one's fear, or anger, or unforgiveness holds them prisoner, how can it be anything else but the Dark Side? When one enjoys hurting others, as you Master Azrel pointed out, this is the Dark Side. When one cannot allow the image they have of themselves to be threatened and will protect it at all costs, this is often the Dark Side. The Dark Side refuses to allow the possibility of being wrong.

I do not believe I labeled anyone's personal dogma or doctrine as evil. I said nothing of paganism, pure land Jediism, or 5th rite. I use the illustrations of Christianity because that is what I am most familiar with, but I am just as often to use an illustration from the Tao or the Gospel of Buddha, or the Star Wars movies. Sometimes it is possible to illustrate certain truths better with some of these other sources.

I make no judgments and will make no judgments about the kind of person anyone here is (except about DK, he seems to be the \"what you see is what you get\" kind of guy ). My initial warning was about what I believe to be the Dark Side and delving into it. Where laws and moral codes and matters of right and wrong are concerned, I can't even begin to untangle that mess.

If nothing else, it seems like the little thread I started has provoked some good discussion and perhaps at least caused everyone involved to really think about these things within themselves, something we don't tend to do when everyone agrees with one another (which I tend to read a little too often from what I've seen of this forum).

Faith requires risk. Beliefs need to be challenged and we need to know what those core foundational beliefs which each of us holds really are. We believe them, just because we believe them, and for no other good cause. There is nothing wrong with this, it is the way the mind is designed. This is where faith comes into play. But there is always a risk involved with faith. If it is safe, and there is no risk, then it isn't faith.

Master Azrel, I know your first name is Becky because you introduced yourself on a previous post to me. This is how I knew you were female and why I chose to use the feminine of Master. It would be to me the same as calling you \"Lady Azrel\" as opposed to \"Lord Azrel\". In short, it was out of respect for both your rank and gender that I called you \"Mistress\". If you prefer Master, so be it.

My former title was Reverend Father. Some people still call me Fr. Allen (never liked Fr. Bair, it always brought up images of goldilocks). Most now don't know me by it, and some would likely feel threatened by it even though it is still technically correct since Orders are permanent irregardless of what happens to you.

In the even anyone has any lingering doubts and I have not made myself clear enough on this, I will never condemn anyone for the actions or choices they make for themselves. I would likely point out the consequences of those actions should they look harmful, but I would not judge or condemn them for it. Would you honestly condemn a loved family member who has burned themselves severely or would you care for them and take them to the hospital? Would you turn them out of the house or would you tend their wounds and help them into and out of bed? It isn't my right or my place to judge. A priest's job is to shepherd, offer guidance, and reconcile, not sit in judgment when he himself is just as malfunctioning as the person he presumes to judge. I leave all such judgment to God, \"karma\", and history.

In the regards to my belief in heaven or hell, simply stated I don't believe in them, at least not in the terms of christianity. As for being on the fence the reason I am there is because I have crossed over many times in my past to a very dangerous side or sides of darkness. I like the fence, it allows me leway into both aspects and my perch is rather worn from sitting and walking so no pain on that aspect . basically my signature qoute sums me up pretty damn well. \"I could choose to be purely good, but I will not. I could choose to be purely evil, but I will not. I will be neutral. In that way I am free to be what suits me best, and no man can predict my actions.\"-Lycorne.