Nature of "the Force" (Light/Dark dicotomy)

@ Cronal-That's personal interpretation, and you're entitled to it.

I've just come across Gray Jedi in the "mythology" (what should I call it?) -even Qui-Gon was accused of being one due to his opposition to the Jedi council. I wonder if this is where the Jedi academy get their shadow path/council from

The force is energy....energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only change form....

Many confuse the shadows with greys... the greys are exactly that...they don't see either light or dark as a desired path for balance ....the shadows were lightsiders trained to hunt down and eliminate fallen jedi...at least according to the fiction..(I could be wrong as it's been a while since I've read up on it)

Look in the totjo library and read the descriptions in the great jedi holocron

RyuJin wrote: The force is energy....energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only change form....

To piggy back off of RyuJin stated, one can say the force is also the building blocks for matter. (See E=mc²). So therefore, the statement Obi-Wan Kenobi makes in ANH, "It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."
You could even generalize it a bit more and say that the force is an energy field created by all things.

And even on top of that Quantum physicists are noticing that matter (or parts of matter) seem to pop in and out of existence without (noticeable) precedence. My point being that Energy also pops in and out of existence (not necessarily destroyed; it just goes someplace else that we don't know about.):blink:

And there's the exchange of energy between living things and mitochondria at the cellular level....

This may have been mentioned but I view it as a source of karma too. That the energy that the Force creates for us reflects the energy we put into it. If we put in darkness, we receive darkness...if we put in light we receive light. The Force itself is neutral but will reflect back what it is given. Just my two cents on that

Iron Wings wrote: I've just come across Gray Jedi in the "mythology" (what should I call it?) -even Qui-Gon was accused of being one due to his opposition to the Jedi council. I wonder if this is where the Jedi academy get their shadow path/council from

Sadly this is where Star Wars canon started suffering from re-write after re-write as to what Grey Jedi or even Dark Jedi meant. In its original or 'classical' meaning 'Grey Jedi' meant a Jedi of the Order that did not follow the High Council or strictly follow otherwise Orthodox Jedi values. By the time of KotOR however this was rewritten to mean a Jedi who had possibly left the Order and was somehow able to harness both Light and Darkside energies.
By 'classical' definition a 'Dark Jedi' could be a Jedi who had simply left the Order either voluntarily or been expelled but not necessarily one that followed the Dark Side. The 'dark' in the 'Dark Jedi' title simply representing their complete seperation from the Order and the High Council. It was only later on that the term 'Dark Jedi' took on a purely Dark Side using, evil Jedi meaning.

With regards to the Force, the Force i feel is very much like the Tao and the symbol known typically as the 'Yin-Yang' symbol describes the Force perfectly. The Force is essentially THE FORCE. But the Force is made of two opposing yet complementary energies. You cannot have light without dark and vice-versa. Without one the other has no meaning.
A comparison i typically use in the Star Wars online roleplaying community i am a part of is to take the colour purple. It is after all a single colour but we of course know that is is made of two different colours, blue and red. It is through either calm, peaceful communion or the use of raw emotion and passion that either one of these sides or colours can then be distinguished and as such felt and communed with.

Azrael wrote:

Iron Wings wrote: I've just come across Gray Jedi in the "mythology" (what should I call it?) -even Qui-Gon was accused of being one due to his opposition to the Jedi council. I wonder if this is where the Jedi academy get their shadow path/council from

Sadly this is where Star Wars canon started suffering from re-write after re-write as to what Grey Jedi or even Dark Jedi meant. In its original or 'classical' meaning 'Grey Jedi' meant a Jedi of the Order that did not follow the High Council or strictly follow otherwise Orthodox Jedi values.

Calling the fiction from Star Wars "cannon" is the biggest problem with Jediism today, too many fans, and not enough Jedi...

Zenchi wrote:

Azrael wrote:

Iron Wings wrote: I've just come across Gray Jedi in the "mythology" (what should I call it?) -even Qui-Gon was accused of being one due to his opposition to the Jedi council. I wonder if this is where the Jedi academy get their shadow path/council from

Sadly this is where Star Wars canon started suffering from re-write after re-write as to what Grey Jedi or even Dark Jedi meant. In its original or 'classical' meaning 'Grey Jedi' meant a Jedi of the Order that did not follow the High Council or strictly follow otherwise Orthodox Jedi values.

Calling the fiction from Star Wars "cannon" is the biggest problem with Jediism today, too many fans, and not enough Jedi...

When talking of canon i was refering to canon relating to Star Wars as created by George Lucas, not canon relating to Jediism. Apologies if this wasn't made clear initially.

Azrael wrote:

Iron Wings wrote: With regards to the Force, the Force i feel is very much like the Tao and the symbol known typically as the 'Yin-Yang' symbol describes the Force perfectly. The Force is essentially THE FORCE. But the Force is made of two opposing yet complementary energies. You cannot have light without dark and vice-versa. Without one the other has no meaning.

First off, I loved what you said about the Force in your post Azrael and I agree with you that the Force is like the Tao and it reminded me of a passage in the Tao Te Ching.

Under heaven all can see beauty as beauty only because there is ugliness.
All can know good as good only because there is evil.

Therefore having and not having arise together.
Difficult and easy complement each other.
Long and short contrast each other:
High and low rest upon each other;
Voice and sound harmonize each other;
Front and back follow one another.

Therefore the sage goes about doing nothing, teaching no-talking.
The ten thousand things rise and fall without cease,
Creating, yet not.
Working, yet not taking credit.
Work is done, then forgotten.
Therefore it lasts forever.

Azrael wrote:

Zenchi wrote:

Azrael wrote:

Iron Wings wrote: I've just come across Gray Jedi in the "mythology" (what should I call it?) -even Qui-Gon was accused of being one due to his opposition to the Jedi council. I wonder if this is where the Jedi academy get their shadow path/council from

Sadly this is where Star Wars canon started suffering from re-write after re-write as to what Grey Jedi or even Dark Jedi meant. In its original or 'classical' meaning 'Grey Jedi' meant a Jedi of the Order that did not follow the High Council or strictly follow otherwise Orthodox Jedi values.

Calling the fiction from Star Wars "cannon" is the biggest problem with Jediism today, too many fans, and not enough Jedi...

When talking of canon i was refering to canon relating to Star Wars as created by George Lucas, not canon relating to Jediism. Apologies if this wasn't made clear initially.

Then it probably Belongs in a thread about star wars, as this thread is about the Force...

Azrael wrote: A comparison i typically use in the Star Wars online roleplaying community i am a part of is to take the colour purple. It is after all a single colour but we of course know that is is made of two different colours, blue and red. It is through either calm, peaceful communion or the use of raw emotion and passion that either one of these sides or colours can then be distinguished and as such felt and communed with.

Sometimes I feel like the dichotomy of light and dark is akin to a black and white TV versus a color TV, and it leaves me wondering 'what about the colors!!!'. Purple is almost like an energetic grey in that way.

Of course the dichotomy is not of these things, but what they represent. Still, I was looking at the color spectrum and cannot help but think red at one end and purple at the other are very different from light versus dark (with are very much poles apart).... since purple is a combination of the antipole red, plus blue!

So I like to see red as standing for passion/sacrifice and at the other end the purple color really is a clash between that red and blue, ie conflict. It could make more sense for purple to represent conflict as it does actual show a higher energy state. So then going all Star Wars (sorry Zenchi) red blades could represent a call for victims to sacrifice on the Sith blade, while blue a call to conflict so it can be settled best by the Jedi way together with green as protective and harmonious midpoint.

In which case a color Force dichotomy could be passion/red/giving of oneself to a cause, versus conflict/purple/exhausting resources through competition for a cause. It also aligns well with blood, red is fresh and oxygenated ready for use, while purple is rare and causes tension around it. One of the things I like about dichotomies is that by having two points they automatically create a midpoint. So in this regard I feel like the color version of grey might not be purple like I first thought, but instead green!

Zenchi wrote:

Azrael wrote:

Zenchi wrote:

Azrael wrote:

Iron Wings wrote: I've just come across Gray Jedi in the "mythology" (what should I call it?) -even Qui-Gon was accused of being one due to his opposition to the Jedi council. I wonder if this is where the Jedi academy get their shadow path/council from

Sadly this is where Star Wars canon started suffering from re-write after re-write as to what Grey Jedi or even Dark Jedi meant. In its original or 'classical' meaning 'Grey Jedi' meant a Jedi of the Order that did not follow the High Council or strictly follow otherwise Orthodox Jedi values.

Calling the fiction from Star Wars "cannon" is the biggest problem with Jediism today, too many fans, and not enough Jedi...

When talking of canon i was refering to canon relating to Star Wars as created by George Lucas, not canon relating to Jediism. Apologies if this wasn't made clear initially.

Then it probably Belongs in a thread about star wars, as this thread is about the Force...

I have to strongly disagree with this statement. When trying to define terms, it's often best to look at the original source of those terms. In matters related to Jedi and the Force, the original source is Star Wars. Star Wars has different levels of canon (what is considered "official fact") based upon the source of the information: the films are level 1, cartoons and video games are level 2, and the various EU novels are level 3.

A person's interpretation of the ideas the TotJO is CALLING "the Force" is up to that person... But it is in no way illegitimate to bring up Level 2 and 3 Canon definitions of "Dark Jedi" when this church's code is copy/pasted from the same sources.

If Jediism seeks to strive towards the same principles followed by the fictional Jedi, it's also fair to infer that other definitional aspects stem from the same source... Though it's fairly clear that the personal interpretations of the nature of the Force here in the community are pretty wildly divergent from the Force of the Star Wars universe. (As is appropriate for such a diverse group which is simply using the name "the Force" for whatever analog seems appropriate in their philosophy.)

I know that there are those categories in stating this will of the light side and this is the will of the dark side. What I have learned that is sometimes is not light or dark. There is only power, and the way that one preserves what is being presented to them. It is also based on one’s point of view and how one is taught and brought up. One can be taught to hate a particular religion because their belief is the only one that is right, while one is taught growing up to except all others beliefs as their own. However, I do believe that there is a philosophical difference in beliefs that the biggest major miss due to they are closed minded and not open to others point of view.

MurMur wrote: I know that there are those categories in stating this will of the light side and this is the will of the dark side. What I have learned that is sometimes is not light or dark. There is only power, and the way that one preserves what is being presented to them. It is also based on one’s point of view and how one is taught and brought up. One can be taught to hate a particular religion because their belief is the only one that is right, while one is taught growing up to except all others beliefs as their own. However, I do believe that there is a philosophical difference in beliefs that the biggest major miss due to they are closed minded and not open to others point of view.

This is largely true. As i said earlier, as far as i'm aware, having read heavily into 'The Force' as the concept exists is Star Wars and also Taoism, which it is loosely based on to an extent there is just 'The Force.' The Force however is made of two opposing yet complementary energies, 'Light' and 'Dark.' Names which, sadly, carry very polarised and perhaps negative connotations.
Depending on how one is raised one might see one side of the spectrum more clearly than the other. The Jedi being able to see the Light more clearly thanks to their focus on discipline, inner peace and calm while he Sith see the Dark more clearly, relying more on their raw emotion and passion. This draws on my use of the colour purple earlier. Jedi would see the blue aspect of purple more clearly while Sith would see the red. Those without any kind of upbringing or strong adherence to either of these philosophies would see only the 'grey areas' or in this case, simply purple; seeing neither Light or Dark.

Ah,

“If Jediism seeks to strive towards the same principles followed by the fictional Jedi, it's also fair to infer that other definitional aspects stem from the same source...”

I see where the confusion has come from.

We are not fictional Jedi from the wonderful Star Wars movies, neither are we role playing. Jediism is not the same as that which is portrayed within the Star Wars Saga by George Lucas and Lucasfilm LTD. George Lucas' Jedi are fictional characters that exist within a literary and cinematic universe.

As stated on this page. http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/

Wescli Wardest wrote: Ah,

“If Jediism seeks to strive towards the same principles followed by the fictional Jedi, it's also fair to infer that other definitional aspects stem from the same source...”

I see where the confusion has come from.

We are not fictional Jedi from the wonderful Star Wars movies, neither are we role playing. Jediism is not the same as that which is portrayed within the Star Wars Saga by George Lucas and Lucasfilm LTD. George Lucas' Jedi are fictional characters that exist within a literary and cinematic universe.

As stated on this page. http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/

It's not confusion. It's a matter of etymology... Unless you have a better place to find a definition of "Dark Jedi" or similar terms?

Imagine if I started a purely peaceful, contemplative, Zen-like philosophy, and an organization surrounding it. I then have each member make their own ceremonial armor, representative of their dedication to the path, and the protection of their conviction.

And then I called them Mandalorians.

When you take a pre-existing term and apply it to a cosmetically similar concept - particularly when you appropriate large swathes of the culture associated with that term - one shouldn't dismiss similar definitions out of hand.

Jediism is quite similar to the fictional philosophies followed by Jedi in the Star Wars universe. It is by no means outrageous to infer that "Dark Jedi" would be at least as similar to their fictional counterparts. However, that's not even the matter at hand; what was originally provided was not a statement of what Dark Jediism is, but rather how it has been described in the fiction.

And the reaction was something along the lines of "Nuh-uh, that's not me! Fanboy!"

My original points were mainly directed at Zenchi... Though, honestly, the biggest disconnect was that Iron Wings was asking about something he read in the fiction, and if/how it related to real-world Jediism. Azrael proceeded to elaborate on the fictional concept Iron Wings was asking about, pointing out that it's difficult to make solid statements about the philosophy of the fiction because it wasn't very consistent.

Then Zenchi proceeded with his description of "the biggest problem with Jediism today". It was that to which I was primarily responding.

My apologies, I didn't mean to stir the pot. I am however noticing more and more discussion about fiction and useless debating than I'm actually hearing people discuss views on actual sources of inspiration behind the religion itself. This group is becoming more & more just another social group of fanboys arguing over fiction as canon then people actually using it as a church on Jediism. There are a million web sites out there were topics such is what are "dark Jedi" and where they come from and how they fit into the community can be chewed to death, it's the kind of crap I expect to find over at the F.A.

Zenchi wrote: My apologies, I didn't mean to stir the pot. I am however noticing more and more discussion about fiction and useless debating than I'm actually hearing people discuss views on actual sources of inspiration behind the religion itself. This group is becoming more & more just another social group of fanboys arguing over fiction as canon then people actually using it as a church on Jediism. There are a million web sites out there were topics such is what are "dark Jedi" and where they come from and how they fit into the community can be chewed to death, it's the kind of crap I expect to find over at the F.A.

While I'm certainly not about to dismiss the fiction because I do love the movies and I think most of the fiction is valuable when used in the context of its mythology... its a story. Its canon is a story written to fit around a fictional concept. The fact that the philosophy behind it resonates with us so deeply doenst mean that the story needs to take on a concreteness that we must adhere to. If we knew for a fact that the story of Moses, or Jesus or Mohammed or Buddha was just a fiction, would people give as much credence to its canon and laws? And even with those stories that many take as fact, there is still deviation from the original concept.

There are aproximately 33 thousand Christian demoninations
Around 18 types of Hinduism
At least three official types of Buddism
Stars only knows how many versions of whats termed paganism.

Each has taken a pre-existing term and altered it to suit their belief or purpose, just as we are doing here. Yes there is an appropriation of terms and culture, but at the end of the day we have made it our culture, and so the definitions are based on the consensis of the people within that culture.

I am certainly not an authority and am still very new to Jediism, but from where I sit, I feel that Zenchi has a point.

Is this about the website redesign? I had not noticed much discussion about the fiction in the forum, just lots of pictures and posts on the wall. Anything which makes people more connected (in relation to time) runs the risk of increasing the amount of fun stuff to serious stuff ratio. The smaller the slice the greater the [strike]tweet[/strike] twit!!! Oh and the humor forum too.

That aside, everyone's path is going to have different ingredients in different quantities. Too much of any one in particular start's to overpower the soup, so to say, but the Star Wars fiction is particular for its tendency to both excite and empower the path, while also running the risk of misrepresenting real Jediism to new comers. I guess all we can do is remember to be clear about the distinction while being true to our individual paths and interests.