How Do Jedi View Waterboarding?

Moderators: Adder, Desolous

How Do Jedi View Waterboarding? 25 Apr 2012 18:13 #57793

According to our temple doctrine, "Jedi Believe...In the sanctity of the human person. We oppose the use of torture and cruel or unusual punishment including the death penalty. 1"

I know that waterboarding is a very controversial issue (one that my dad and I always debate), and that the United States military has used waterboarding as a "advanced method of interrogation". I personally believe it is torture, but my dad always disagrees and says that it doesn't cause pain but merely "scares" the person (because he feels like he's drowning.

Moreover, as a Jedi (in training)...

1) I oppose torture and cruel and unusual punishment.
2) I think that waterboarding is torture because it does cause people pain and forces them to answer questions.

Therefore

3) I oppose waterboarding.


What's your position on this matter? How do other Jedi view waterboarding?

1) Do you oppose any type of torture and cruel and unusual punishment?
2) Do you think waterboarding is torture? (Or just "an advanced form of interrogation"?)
3) (Therefore) Do you oppose or support waterboarding?


Thanks for you opinions, in advance.
Sean Ching - Jedi Apprentice
Teaching Master: Senior Knight V-Tog

Re: How Do Jedi View Waterboarding? 25 Apr 2012 18:17 #57795

One quick tidbit of perspective...

Some of you may ask why in the world would my dad think waterboarding isn't torture? (It seems a bit crazy to me.)

However, here is what I found on wikipedia: specifically about the Bush Administration's use of waterboarding and their justification for using it on suspected terrorists:

"During the presidency of George W. Bush, U.S. government officials at various times said they did not believe waterboarding to be a form of torture.[12][13][14][15] To justify its use of waterboarding, the Bush administration issued classified legal opinions that argued for a narrow definition of torture under U.S. law, including the Bybee memo, which it later withdrew.[16][17][18]"



So, my point is, even though I think that waterboarding is definitely torture (and I'm sure a lot of you also agree), there are many significant people out there that support it and deny that is is torture.

So there are many perspectives. Life is not simple.
Sean Ching - Jedi Apprentice
Teaching Master: Senior Knight V-Tog

Re: How Do Jedi View Waterboarding? 25 Apr 2012 18:21 #57796

  • Darren
  • Darren's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Knight
  • Deacon
  • ID: 8542
I oppose torture and cruel and unusual punishment.
To me, water-boarding is torture. Even if it doesn't cause physical pain, there is emotional and psychological pain involved.
Therefore, I oppose water-boarding.

Re: How Do Jedi View Waterboarding? 25 Apr 2012 18:24 #57799

It is not a punishment... it is torture!

I openly oppose all torture.
Some forms of water boarding are extremely painful... and they not only damage the body, but the psyche. People are never the same afterwards, and people have died a very slow and terrifying death from it.

I believe that the ends never "justify" the means and that we should conduct ourselves accordingly.
I not only cherish human life, but hold a sanctity to all life.

Re: How Do Jedi View Waterboarding? 25 Apr 2012 18:25 #57800

  • NickCB
  • NickCB's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Novice
  • ID: 10295
It would depend how you define torture, if its mental then yes waterboarding is mental torture but it is not physical. Its similar to the water torture of dripping water on someones head although that does cause more physical damage.
The issue is that many see torture as physical and not mental

Re: How Do Jedi View Waterboarding? 25 Apr 2012 18:28 #57802

  • LTK
  • LTK's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Knight
  • ID: 8277
I don't know that I would call it torture, but in my quickly formed opinion that is subject to change, I think I'm against it simply because it can be a slippery slope to other extreme forms of punishment.

Instead, ask the prisoner what his favorite foods and dessert are. Then just give the prisoner bread and water while you eat their favorite meals everyday in front of them. Do this until they crack. I'd crack on that kind of treatment in about a day.

See? You don't need "aggresive negotiations."

MTFBWY,
LTK
Master: Jestor
“I have striven not to laugh at human actions, not to weep at them, nor to hate them, but to understand them" -- Baruch Spinoza.

Re: How Do Jedi View Waterboarding? 25 Apr 2012 18:31 #57803

  • V-Tog
  • V-Tog's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Senior Knight
  • Priest
  • ID: 9122
1) Do you oppose any type of torture and cruel and unusual punishment?

Yes. Who are we to grant ourselves the power to cause other people pain and suffering? My moral code finds the concept of torture abhorrent. And aside from that, what if the person turned out to be innocent?

2) Do you think waterboarding is torture? (Or just "an advanced form of interrogation"?)

Absolutely. It is supposed to simulate drowning, is it not? Imagine what it must feel like to drown - to feel as though your lungs are filling with water and you can't breathe. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

3) (Therefore) Do you oppose or support waterboarding?

Oppose. Very very strongly.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Wescli Wardest, Harvestpaw

Re: How Do Jedi View Waterboarding? 25 Apr 2012 18:42 #57805

Well, I think we can all agree that waterboarding is something we would not like to do or to be subject of. In my opinion it is clearly a form of torture.

From the linguistical point of view:

If we look the definition of torture up, in the spanish royal language academy dictionary (Real Academia Española de la Lengua), we find the following definition:
Grave dolor físico o psicológico infligido a alguien, con métodos y utensilios diversos, con el fin de obtener de él una confesión, o como medio de castigo. which means: serious physical or psicological pain inflicted to someone with diverse methods and tools, with the goal of obtaaining a confession or as a punishment. therefore wateboading would be a form of torture.

From the moral point of view:

From this point of view another controversy arises, ¿Is it justified in some situations to inflict pain on another person to obtain information which may save a life?. I say to save a life because I believe that the right to live is the highest one there is, and therefore the only one that may justify moraly wrong actions like forms of torture, or even terminating another life (self defence), when my right to live conflicts with the right to live of another.

Any other situation where torture is applied for other reasons I cannot justify. For me only life is worth enough to corrupt our behaviour in such a way.

so:
1. I oppose forms of torture and unsusual punishment. The only exception I see is that as a result of it a life may be saved.
2.Yes, I think waterboarding is torture
3. I totally oppose this type of torturing. Appart from beeing a form of torture, it is also too aggressive, and may therefore cause not only permanent psicologycal damage (trauma) but also death if not done "right".

Re: How Do Jedi View Waterboarding? 26 Apr 2012 15:54 #57900

  • Akkarin
  • Akkarin's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Councillor
  • Priest
  • ID: 484
JORIZQUI wrote:
Any other situation where torture is applied for other reasons I cannot justify. For me only life is worth enough to corrupt our behaviour in such a way.

You think it's worth it when we corrupt our behaviour? How is it you think that it's possible to have larger ideals if the smaller ones get compromised?

It's like building a house without a foundation. Sooner or later it will collapse.
V-Tog wrote:
1) Do you oppose any type of torture and cruel and unusual punishment?

Yes. Who are we to grant ourselves the power to cause other people pain and suffering? My moral code finds the concept of torture abhorrent. And aside from that, what if the person turned out to be innocent?

2) Do you think waterboarding is torture? (Or just "an advanced form of interrogation"?)

Absolutely. It is supposed to simulate drowning, is it not? Imagine what it must feel like to drown - to feel as though your lungs are filling with water and you can't breathe. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

3) (Therefore) Do you oppose or support waterboarding?

Oppose. Very very strongly.

That is my view exactly
Sean Ching via Wikipedia wrote:
the Bush administration issued classified legal opinions that argued for a narrow definition of torture under U.S. law

That is simply using the letter of the law to defeat the spirit of the law
Apprentices: discorder, hellisforhorses, Red Lila
Former Apprentices: Desolous
Former Master: Br. John

Councillor
Head of Public Relations and Marketing
Librarian
Associate Pastor
The following user(s) said Thank You: V-Tog

Re: How Do Jedi View Waterboarding? 26 Apr 2012 15:59 #57901

Anyone that considers waterboarding not torturous should be waterboarded themselves- and I happen to like Bush (not getting into politics here, so don't start).

I am against waterboarding and torture- with the exception of withholding "treats" (soda, chai, tobacco, etc).
Alethea "Setanaoko" Thompson
Apprentice to Br. John

"Stop praying. Praying is a sense of false accomplishment, thus leading you to inaction. If you stop praying, you will be driven to take action, which in the end will prove more effective." - Nathan Thompson
Latest Posts Comments Articles
    • Wonders of our Doctrine.. (Last post by ren)
    • Quote: I wonder.. If the philosophical roots in the movies and Jediism are the same? The Doctrine tells us that Jediism and 'Star Wars' share almost the same philosophical roots. Do you think it is written correctly? -Jediism finds its roots in philosophies that did not make it to star wars. And some of the philosophies that made it to star wars did not make it to jediism. -Jediism evolved in a way that occasionally contradicts star wars, for example: The first sentence of the doctrine says: Jediism is a religion based on the observance of the Force, a ubiquitous and metaphysical power that a Jedi (a follower of Jediism) believes to be the underlying, fundamental nature of the universe. Star Wars says: "Life creates it, makes it grow". "life creates it" is an uncommon belief nowadays. Some believe that they can grow their personal force (a concept not found in star wars and directly imported from buddhism) and the living force (that's the force created by life; more life = more force). The universalist point of view (as adopted by the doctrine) stipulates the force is everywhere and responsible for the existence of everything, a very pantheistic view, with any other force concepts, objects, "souls", etc being avatars/manifestations of the force. With this often comes a belief that the Force is some kind of energy that does not grow but mutates (like any other energy). The star Wars force can be likened to chi, the jediism force is more like the tao or brahman.
    • Humble and Egotist (Last post by efuller18)
    • And in some cases you are actually encouraged to behave like an egoist. On the way back from a conference one of my professors and I had a conversation about what you need to do to suceed as a woman in computer science and academia in general. We also talked about the differences she sees in female students and male students. What she basically said was you have to be confidant in the extreme. You have to project the belief even if your not that you are the absolute best programmer/researcher in your school. She said a lot of female students don't project that kind of confidence which is on the edge of pure arrogance. She asked me how I would rank myself against my fellow students and I said I have no idea. She said most of her male students would say they were great in comparison. It was the first time I had ever really heard someone saying that having the attitude that there is always more to learn is a bad thing and that projecting that attitude could have negative consequences for your career. Apparently, being humble is not an advantage when it comes to a scientific career.
    • HEMA, what is it? (Last post by RyuJin)
    • despite my heritage i've never really felt a connection to european fighting arts...i've always been drawn to the east asian arts...and i've been studying them since i was 8 years old....so 31 years now.....man i'm old.....
    • Jediism.. way of asking? What are the subjects tha... (Last post by Aqua)
    • The main purpose of this topic is to share your subjects that you would like to see more at the temple. Many threads in this section of the forum goes about what you think of a specific subject. What are the subjects you would like to mind about? Just to find out what kind of subjects the temple likes.. It might bring wonderful insight and inspiration. I guess that I enjoy to discuss objects that are not used much. Because It can help us to understand things better that we normally pass over. Creating a new way to see things by watching out a other perspective, guess that is also the reason for me to create this Topic. Lets improve our way of seeing from multiple perspectives together. :blush: May the force be with us all ~ Aqua
    • Jedism hippies? (Last post by Aqua)
    • If I would ask: ,,How can I know that different hippies like the same kind of music.'' Jestor would have asked: ,,What is music?'' If I would ask: ,,How can rules affect a faith?'' Jestor would have asked: ,,What is affection?'' When Jestor asked himself: ,,Why is Aqua trying to type what I think?'' Aqua would have said: ,,Knowing the mind of a person is not harder than expressing yourself.'' Just wondering.. what would happen if all people would give equal value to the same principles or rules? Would we still be able to separate an individual from a group? If principles are so important for groups, why is it that we find it so difficult to express the line between ourselves and others groups? How can it be, that understanding our self is just as difficult as understanding a group? :blush:
    • saber build (Last post by RyuJin)
    • once the parts arrive i'll be using this thread as a sort of tutorial.... my old ultrasaber was never oiled....6years and going and it still opens just fine...the body for my new build wasn't oiled either and it doesn't stick....but i'm constantly opening both sabers.....worst case scenario i'll use some oil from my gun cleaning kit....
    • Posting Pictures (Last post by Jestor)
    • Quote: So if I'm understanding you I using my phone to access the internet and the forum so it will upload right from my phones picture album? Yes? Yep...
    • a question about the value of human life (Last post by Ariane)
    • I am lost this conversation is confusing, We should do a survey or a poll to find out what other people think. Does human life have value? Do people support a tyranny of this magnitude?
    • The Sixth Extinction (Last post by Locksley)
    • A positive outlook was what I started it on: Quote: Our intelligence and our technology have given us the power to affect the climate. How will we use this power? Are we willing to tolerate ignorance and complacency in matters that affect the entire human family? Do we value short-term advantages above the welfare of the Earth? Or will we think on longer time scales, with concern for our children and our grandchildren, to understand and protect the complex life-support systems of our planet? The Earth is a tiny and fragile world. It needs to be cherished. [ Source ] ~Carl Sagan So, yes, I did start this with hearing positive possibilities, as well as various concerns (and possible solutions to those concerns). Actually I tried to leave it pretty open-ended, but I certainly started it with a note of positivity directed at solutions to issues we face. "In any case, this thread was hardly geared toward solutions" isn't quite accurate.

There are 529 visitors, 16 guests and 35 members online (one in chat): Shadouness, Jestor, Karn, ren, Adder, Proteus, V-Tog, isisinabi, Alexandre Orion, PatrickB, Calem, Llama Su, Archon, Kamizu, mdk, Pyrus Erath, benedictveritas, Goken, Matsukaze, focone oceanlast, GalUnDrux, Tarran, Exarchias, Faol, Exar Qel Droma, Rocda, Tk768, Hitira38, Relyt Dagor, Krieger, MaGnA CrYsTaL, WayneTec, Protonix, Blind, Dokugan Ryu, Plasmawiz, jberes, Zander, Elephrank, RKnowles, KyLoc6, Jamacam, herbalc, OJMyers, Corsair Gorscue.

Follow Us