How Do Jedi View Waterboarding?

Moderators: Adder, Desolous

How Do Jedi View Waterboarding? 25 Apr 2012 18:13 #57793

According to our temple doctrine, "Jedi Believe...In the sanctity of the human person. We oppose the use of torture and cruel or unusual punishment including the death penalty. 1"

I know that waterboarding is a very controversial issue (one that my dad and I always debate), and that the United States military has used waterboarding as a "advanced method of interrogation". I personally believe it is torture, but my dad always disagrees and says that it doesn't cause pain but merely "scares" the person (because he feels like he's drowning.

Moreover, as a Jedi (in training)...

1) I oppose torture and cruel and unusual punishment.
2) I think that waterboarding is torture because it does cause people pain and forces them to answer questions.

Therefore

3) I oppose waterboarding.


What's your position on this matter? How do other Jedi view waterboarding?

1) Do you oppose any type of torture and cruel and unusual punishment?
2) Do you think waterboarding is torture? (Or just "an advanced form of interrogation"?)
3) (Therefore) Do you oppose or support waterboarding?


Thanks for you opinions, in advance.
Sean Ching - Jedi Apprentice
Teaching Master: Senior Knight V-Tog

Re: How Do Jedi View Waterboarding? 25 Apr 2012 18:17 #57795

One quick tidbit of perspective...

Some of you may ask why in the world would my dad think waterboarding isn't torture? (It seems a bit crazy to me.)

However, here is what I found on wikipedia: specifically about the Bush Administration's use of waterboarding and their justification for using it on suspected terrorists:

"During the presidency of George W. Bush, U.S. government officials at various times said they did not believe waterboarding to be a form of torture.[12][13][14][15] To justify its use of waterboarding, the Bush administration issued classified legal opinions that argued for a narrow definition of torture under U.S. law, including the Bybee memo, which it later withdrew.[16][17][18]"



So, my point is, even though I think that waterboarding is definitely torture (and I'm sure a lot of you also agree), there are many significant people out there that support it and deny that is is torture.

So there are many perspectives. Life is not simple.
Sean Ching - Jedi Apprentice
Teaching Master: Senior Knight V-Tog

Re: How Do Jedi View Waterboarding? 25 Apr 2012 18:21 #57796

  • Darren
  • Darren's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Knight
  • Deacon
  • ID: 8542
I oppose torture and cruel and unusual punishment.
To me, water-boarding is torture. Even if it doesn't cause physical pain, there is emotional and psychological pain involved.
Therefore, I oppose water-boarding.
Rev. Darren M. Baldwin OCP
Knight of Jediism & Deacon of the TotJO/Ordained Minister of the Force
Masters: GM Mark Anjuu, Wescli Wardest, and Alexandre Orion

Re: How Do Jedi View Waterboarding? 25 Apr 2012 18:24 #57799

It is not a punishment... it is torture!

I openly oppose all torture.
Some forms of water boarding are extremely painful... and they not only damage the body, but the psyche. People are never the same afterwards, and people have died a very slow and terrifying death from it.

I believe that the ends never "justify" the means and that we should conduct ourselves accordingly.
I not only cherish human life, but hold a sanctity to all life.

Re: How Do Jedi View Waterboarding? 25 Apr 2012 18:25 #57800

  • NickCB
  • NickCB's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Novice
  • ID: 10295
It would depend how you define torture, if its mental then yes waterboarding is mental torture but it is not physical. Its similar to the water torture of dripping water on someones head although that does cause more physical damage.
The issue is that many see torture as physical and not mental

Re: How Do Jedi View Waterboarding? 25 Apr 2012 18:28 #57802

  • LTK
  • LTK's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Knight
  • ID: 8277
I don't know that I would call it torture, but in my quickly formed opinion that is subject to change, I think I'm against it simply because it can be a slippery slope to other extreme forms of punishment.

Instead, ask the prisoner what his favorite foods and dessert are. Then just give the prisoner bread and water while you eat their favorite meals everyday in front of them. Do this until they crack. I'd crack on that kind of treatment in about a day.

See? You don't need "aggresive negotiations."

MTFBWY,
LTK
Master: Jestor
Apprentice: Psyddhattha
“I have striven not to laugh at human actions, not to weep at them, nor to hate them, but to understand them" -- Baruch Spinoza.

Re: How Do Jedi View Waterboarding? 25 Apr 2012 18:31 #57803

  • V-Tog
  • V-Tog's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Senior Knight
  • Priest
  • ID: 9122
1) Do you oppose any type of torture and cruel and unusual punishment?

Yes. Who are we to grant ourselves the power to cause other people pain and suffering? My moral code finds the concept of torture abhorrent. And aside from that, what if the person turned out to be innocent?

2) Do you think waterboarding is torture? (Or just "an advanced form of interrogation"?)

Absolutely. It is supposed to simulate drowning, is it not? Imagine what it must feel like to drown - to feel as though your lungs are filling with water and you can't breathe. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

3) (Therefore) Do you oppose or support waterboarding?

Oppose. Very very strongly.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Wescli Wardest, Harvestpaw

Re: How Do Jedi View Waterboarding? 25 Apr 2012 18:42 #57805

Well, I think we can all agree that waterboarding is something we would not like to do or to be subject of. In my opinion it is clearly a form of torture.

From the linguistical point of view:

If we look the definition of torture up, in the spanish royal language academy dictionary (Real Academia Española de la Lengua), we find the following definition:
Grave dolor físico o psicológico infligido a alguien, con métodos y utensilios diversos, con el fin de obtener de él una confesión, o como medio de castigo. which means: serious physical or psicological pain inflicted to someone with diverse methods and tools, with the goal of obtaaining a confession or as a punishment. therefore wateboading would be a form of torture.

From the moral point of view:

From this point of view another controversy arises, ¿Is it justified in some situations to inflict pain on another person to obtain information which may save a life?. I say to save a life because I believe that the right to live is the highest one there is, and therefore the only one that may justify moraly wrong actions like forms of torture, or even terminating another life (self defence), when my right to live conflicts with the right to live of another.

Any other situation where torture is applied for other reasons I cannot justify. For me only life is worth enough to corrupt our behaviour in such a way.

so:
1. I oppose forms of torture and unsusual punishment. The only exception I see is that as a result of it a life may be saved.
2.Yes, I think waterboarding is torture
3. I totally oppose this type of torturing. Appart from beeing a form of torture, it is also too aggressive, and may therefore cause not only permanent psicologycal damage (trauma) but also death if not done "right".

Re: How Do Jedi View Waterboarding? 26 Apr 2012 15:54 #57900

  • Akkarin
  • Akkarin's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Councillor
  • Priest
  • ID: 484
JORIZQUI wrote:
Any other situation where torture is applied for other reasons I cannot justify. For me only life is worth enough to corrupt our behaviour in such a way.

You think it's worth it when we corrupt our behaviour? How is it you think that it's possible to have larger ideals if the smaller ones get compromised?

It's like building a house without a foundation. Sooner or later it will collapse.
V-Tog wrote:
1) Do you oppose any type of torture and cruel and unusual punishment?

Yes. Who are we to grant ourselves the power to cause other people pain and suffering? My moral code finds the concept of torture abhorrent. And aside from that, what if the person turned out to be innocent?

2) Do you think waterboarding is torture? (Or just "an advanced form of interrogation"?)

Absolutely. It is supposed to simulate drowning, is it not? Imagine what it must feel like to drown - to feel as though your lungs are filling with water and you can't breathe. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

3) (Therefore) Do you oppose or support waterboarding?

Oppose. Very very strongly.

That is my view exactly
Sean Ching via Wikipedia wrote:
the Bush administration issued classified legal opinions that argued for a narrow definition of torture under U.S. law

That is simply using the letter of the law to defeat the spirit of the law
Apprentices: discorder, hellisforhorses, Red Lila
Former Apprentices: Desolous
Former Master: Br. John

Councillor
Head of Public Relations and Marketing
Librarian
Associate Pastor

Senior Knight and Priest of the Temple of the Jedi Order
The following user(s) said Thank You: V-Tog

Re: How Do Jedi View Waterboarding? 26 Apr 2012 15:59 #57901

Anyone that considers waterboarding not torturous should be waterboarded themselves- and I happen to like Bush (not getting into politics here, so don't start).

I am against waterboarding and torture- with the exception of withholding "treats" (soda, chai, tobacco, etc).
Alethea "Setanaoko" Thompson
Apprentice to Br. John

"Stop praying. Praying is a sense of false accomplishment, thus leading you to inaction. If you stop praying, you will be driven to take action, which in the end will prove more effective." - Nathan Thompson
Latest Posts Comments Articles
    • "The Interview" gets pulled (Last post by Jestor)
    • Quote: Kim Jong Un needs to have a sense of humor about himself Why? I mean obviously, I get it, lol... But our evaluation of what he needs to do, dont mean squat, lol... If he truly believes he is the best, then he will do as he wants, and sees no room for improvement... He is just "being", he just "IS"... lol... Truly kind of interesting, in a dangerous way... It will happen some day, maybe, N. Korea will fall from the dictatorship..... Why would someone make a movie about a crazy dictator that is living? WHy provoke a bear? Even some little whiney little bear like this? For laughs? lol...
    • Meditation Comes With a Price (Last post by Alethea Thompson)
    • Oh come now: Quote: "In fact, meditation can actually be harmful; it can precipitate psychosis or release a debilitating flood of painful affect in some seriously disturbed" It's not dishonesty. Quote: "So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view." Manipulative, sure, but if what I was saying is that "the price is a probability roll that you will have a panic attack or precipitate psychosis" it's not dishonesty at all :P
    • Spiritual agnostic talks. (Last post by Khaos)
    • Quote: We are insignificant spects in the cosmos. That's our place. There are things greater than us that we can't imagine. This speck, isnt insignificant to me. Not at all. Our place is not out there in any case. I do not have a third person view, but first person view, and here, everything is significant, or people wouldnt worry about this little speck and our species continued existence on it. Best to admit what we do know so we can know what we dont, so we can admit that. As it is, the average person doesnt truly know how ignorant they may be, because they have no idea how much we arent.
    • The Force Explained (Last post by Veran_Seawolf)
    • en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson I leave this here for discussion. Could this potentially be science discovering what we understand as the force?
    • The Sword as a Weapon of the Jedi (Last post by Ruminator)
    • Here in Bangladesh we don't have any fencing or kendo clubs. Martial arts is the closest I can get... I'm glad I found this thread.... keep up the discussion....
    • Using TOTJO and some bbcode help (Last post by Ruminator)
    • Thanks mate! I suppose they have switched to a newer template. Even though it doesn't have the quick reply feature(which is really handy imo) it is still pretty cool.
    • Jedi In Combat (Last post by Karn)
    • “It’s easy to be a holy man on top of a mountain.” This is a quote from the movie, The Razor’s Edge starring Bill Murray. It is about a man’s spirit journey about life. It was terrible in the eyes of the critics at the time. I watched it and it changed my life. This movie influenced my decision to join the military. Reacher, you have done an amazing job with this thread. As a brother in arms, I thank you for your service. Not everyone can do what we do. I disarm IEDs as part of my job, usually while taking sniper fire from someone trying to prevent me from clearing the area. Usually these devices are going to kill many people, innocent people, not just combatants. If this is not Jedi work I do not know what is. We all have our calling. I have served for 29 years. I have influenced the hearts and minds of countless Soldiers, Sailors and Marines globally. I walk the Jedi Path. I am a Jedi by my deeds and actions. I strive to be that example in some of the most brutal situations that I scarcely talk about except maybe to a fellow few who can relate or understand the horrors of the world. Some of my brother and sister veterans are/were storm troopers, but they are influenced by the example of true leadership. If we do not have Jedi walking among them, then who else will set that leadership example but the Palpatines of the world? It is not an easy road, but I had to come down from the mountain, step into the face of adversity and temptation that real life throws in our path and using the Force as my guide, managed it fairly well. Again this life is not one I recommend to anyone, I do it so that others do not have to. All I ask is that you take a moment and reflect, meditate on what Reacher’s message is truly saying. If Jedi do not have a place in military or combat then who is left to guide the will of the Force to temper the hands of those who wield the terrible might of the Human Ego?

There are 241 visitors, 11 guests and 33 members online (one in chat): Akkarin, Br. John, Zanthan Storm, Alethea Thompson, Shadouness, baru, Jestor, Nakis, discordor, The_Lukeev, Proteus, Alexandre Orion, Elemental Harmony, Alan, Khaos, Archon, zeronycon, Edan, Silvermane, Senan, Kaverael, a67, Ezekiel Drathos, Jamie Stick, Cabur Senaar, SeventhSL, Goken, Rahm Atuc, Exarchias, Rocda, Ryno, den385, RaB, fredogaston, Poggenata, Darling Harbour, r3dleader, Jamieson, marco, TheForceWithin, Veran_Seawolf.

Follow Us