The Force and Consciousness

Moderators: Adder, Desolous

The Force and Consciousness 05 Sep 2013 17:11 #117398

If your question is, "Does the Force have consciousness?" I would interpret that as, "Is there consciousness within the Force?" to which I would reply that the answer is quite obviously yes. I am a part of the Force and I have consciousness so therefore the Force has consciousness.

If the question intended however was, "Is the Force a consciousness?" I might hesitate to answer. The Force in my belief is not a single consciousness, it is however a collective consciousness. There are billions of consciousnesses all coming together and there are forms of consciousness we cannot explain. I feel that there is no simple answer to this question as posed because consciousness is not an exact science, and mayhaps it never will be. It all comes down to belief and in the end neither side can "win" in the consciousness vs. non-consciousness debate because there is not definitive proof.

So, does the Force have consciousness or does it not?
I must agree with Proteus in saying both and neither.

It is similar to the study of light.
When you test light to see if it acts as a particle, it does.
However when you test light to see if it acts like a wave, it also does.
Is light a particle or a wave?
It is simultaneously both and neither.

It is important to remember that what is observed corresponds directly to how it is being observed.

May the Force be with you,
Rai
The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant;

It is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are.

Apprentice under Training Master Ryujin
The following user(s) said Thank You: Jestor, Wescli Wardest, Proteus, Lykeios

The Force and Consciousness 05 Sep 2013 19:18 #117415

JohnsonMD wrote:
Let me pose the following question for discussion:

Does the Force have Consciousness?

For the purposes of this discussion, let us assume:
  • Consciousness is defined as: the quality or state of being aware of an external object or something within oneself; Sentience, awareness, subjectivity, the ability to experience or to feel, wakefulness, having a sense of selfhood, and the executive control system of the mind.

If possible, please provide some foundation to your answer - so as to help define what that may be (or not be) and provide insight for those also seeking such knowledge.

Nope The force is a sum but not the whole. Made up of all living forces but is not life or a life as defined above. If it were it would be beyond us anyway and beyond our ability to understand it but that doesn't mean we can know of it.

Don't over/deep think or try too hard to define this stuff this stuff. Just live it. :)

Does a small child deep think or define how to walk? Nope, it just gets up and learns how to walk. :)

Good question though.

Qi "The more general probllem of impeded qi flow is experiencing yourself as a passive victim of circumstances that cause the conditions of your life. By contrast, in qigong we learn to exprience ourselves as empowered participants in our health and self development." Kevin D. Schoeninger

The Force and Consciousness 05 Sep 2013 22:06 #117424

Thanks for the responses everyone!

Some of the thoughts provided I can find common ground with, some of them I cannot.

However, said discussion has brought up topics and other aspects that didn't cross my mind prior, or served to either support or deny what I had already thought.

In the end...I have found this productive and worthwhile.

Thanks!
"There are attempts, and there are accomplishments. Histories only praise one."
The following user(s) said Thank You: Raikoutenshi
Last Edit: 05 Sep 2013 22:06 by JohnsonMD.

The Force and Consciousness 14 Sep 2013 06:39 #118261

JohnsonMD wrote:
sidvkili wrote:
JohnsonMD wrote:
Can you expand on the why/how of that Alexandre?

does everything need deep thought?

I could just respond to that by stating, "yes," but wouldn't be helpful now would it. ;)

Everything needs deep thought so that it can be understood, especially those things which are not self evident. The alternative is to know blindly, which imo is folly.

For example; the boots that I just put on my feet and laced up. They at one point required deep thought(s) so that I could come to understand that:
- They protect my feet,
- they are made out of this and that material,
- they are not water-proof! :(
- they are within the regulations (Army)

etc, etc

That level of thinking isn't too complicated, but it does require that I think about it further than just putting something on my feet and calling it a boot.

Things such as the Force, or God, or dogmatic approaches to life and the great mysteries therein require deep thought. Now, maybe that deep thought is not so deep for other people - however, it is necessary for me to have this understanding. Thus, if I ask for clarification, it is so that I can think more deeply upon what is said to me and thusly apply it to my line of thinking. Answers like, "yes" etc, are not helpful in that cause and only serve to complicate an already complicated issue (regardless of the ease at which the one who states such finds the issue complicated for them or not).

Hope that helps to explain where I am coming from.

yeah, it proves my point.
everything doesn't need deep thought. You need or want deep thought.

I stole my friends lunch a few days ago. Why? because I was hungry and I wanted what he had. Did you understand why I did it? Did it have deep thought?


Nope
I like the stars.

The Force and Consciousness 14 Sep 2013 11:17 #118270

A hypothetical scenario:

Premise 1: I define the Force as an existing, transcendental, conscious, eternal, interactive being. A being that fits not this description is not the Force.
Premise 2: The being we talk about is the Force.
Conclusion: Therefore, the being has consciousness i.e. the Force has consciousness.

This is a form of the ontological argument for the existence of God - by defining an entity in a certain way it becomes impossible for any entity under the same label in the course of the given discussion to be anything else. That way you can prove any property the entity might have like consciousness or existence: If it had not the property, the label would no longer fit.

Now the flaw is, of course, that it can prove everything and therefore is useless in proving anything.
You define the Force as something conscious (or not), and it is conscious (or not) so long as it is the Force.
You define it as existing and it exists so long as it is the Force (or not).
You define it as both invisible and pink and so it becomes. You can see where I'm going here.

Since we haven't observed an entity that we agreed to call the Force, our only way to speak of its properties is in defining it as whatever each of us wants it to be. That's a fun exercise but utterly useless in the end for its only potential is to create disagreements which can not be resolved - while it helps us no bit in learning anything about the Force.

The Force and Consciousness 14 Sep 2013 13:08 #118275

  • Alan
  • Alan's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Knight
  • ID: 10670
A discussion regarding definitions is a helpful beginning to understanding, especially for us as we seek wisdom about the nature of the Force.

Some forms of consciousness are highly cognitive while others are less so, and still other forms (meditation, for example) lack that aspect of consciousness that we might call thinking (that is, thinking as an inner dialogue of words and images about some particular idea or object, cognition as problem-solving, and the like). It has been helpful for me to blur the distinctions that traditionally separate feeling and thinking. Think with the body. Eventually, as Alexander suggests, the cognitive activity of thinking about the Force fades as one lives it.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Alexandre Orion

The Force and Consciousness 14 Sep 2013 14:05 #118280

  • Streen
  • Streen's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • ID: 2215
JohnsonMD wrote:
Does the Force have Consciousness?

Well, the way I see it, we have consciousness, and we are one with the Force, so by extension the Force has consciousness.
You can travel for years, through mountains and deserts, and never find it. That is because it was always with you.

The Force and Consciousness 14 Sep 2013 14:48 #118290

Alan wrote:
A discussion regarding definitions is a helpful beginning to understanding, especially for us as we seek wisdom about the nature of the Force.
Bull. If one wishes to learn something about a topic, one better starts studying it and not making things up. Interestingly, if the subject is something real, the observations usually can be confirmed intersubjectively. Now, reality, of course, is in some areas a rather blurry term, but let's not go down that track just yet. Saying that defining a thing helps you understand it, is an admission that the thing in question is not real. Conversely, if it is real, whatever time we spend defining its properties on our own rather than observing them on the object, will be wasted.

Either way, the Force was never too clearly defined here so what the OP ends up with after this thread, is being alone left to make his own opinion on the subject - something he might as well have gotten without this thread altogether.

Also, noone is doing the entirety of the Jedi community any service by defining the Force in his own way. Its not that there haven't been way too well defined gods before and have we not seen enough of where that usually leads? And yet, leaving it undefined leaves the question unanswered... Tough dilemma, isn't it? :D

However, I also realize that this question is more about opinions and less asking for a definite answer, so I should take this a bit easier, I suppose... :blush:
Latest Posts Comments Articles
    • Should 'justice' treat children like adults? (Last post by Burn_Phoenix)
    • This is disgusting, but in my opinion it's from the angle of being guilty of murder without actually killing anyone. A number of the people involved were adults anyway and the 16 year old seems competent enough to be tried as an adult (children in UK law are generally treated like adults in other areas of the law) I agree with ren in that they deserve to have a punishment, but this is completely disproportionate to the actual crime he committed. This would not happen in the UK and for once I appreciate our laws :) I am surprised that he was found guilty given the wording of that law though. Just stupidity!
    • Rants far and wide (Last post by rugadd)
    • People who say "meh" when they see someone do something that took a lot of practice and hard work because they saw a professional do it better in a video. Even worse, when they have done nothing even close to it, nor could they if they tried (without the hard work that is). That is being dismissive and it is hurtful and insulting.
    • 5 rights women have that men don't (Last post by ren)
    • Quote: Quote: Something happens therefore something has caused it. We don't like the idea that women can be mental for no reason whatsoever. No wonder you get annoyed with women :lol: We always have a reason, whether you understand what it is or not :D . That's strange because the top reason given by the majority of domestic abusers (women) is "I thought it was the only way to get through to him" (according to a 1994 study in the UK). I think I'd rather blame PMS if i were a woman, it's a guaranteed excuse: to a man it's the equivalent having our willie cut off every month, with a week's wait for cauterization. Definitely a valid reason to be pissy imo.
    • Is questioning one's faith inevitable? (Last post by Red_Eye_Jedi)
    • Quote: whats your opinion on the moon landing? molecules? the big bang? was george washington REALLY the first president of the united states? is there really such a thing as "quebec"? am i dreaming of you, or are you dreaming of me? im not advocating the rejection of burden of proof im simply responding to the presentaton of an absolute which i know is not realistic for me personally i accept that a degree of faith is ok because otherwise i wont be able to have faith in simple communication woth other people if there actually are any other people OB1Shinobi, I believe my first post answered most of your questions. I do not hold anything to be "true" based on faith. Rather I hold something to be true, only if there is good hard objective evidence to validate it. Those beliefs are subject to change as new objective evidence is presented. I also base my beliefs off my own direct observations, and will trust these even when popular consensus disagrees. If you find this answer unsatisfying, you are welcome to message me in private. Continuing it here will only derail the thread further.
    • Moral Fact (Last post by OB1Shinobi)
    • Quote: But what exactly are these moral truths? And why are those moral truths true instead of another set of moral truths? i know this was not directed at me i would like to respond i dont expect my answer to be equally true for everyone else even though i know that it actually is equally true for all of us :-) in a moment of danger or challenge the body and the mind can kick into a kind of overdrive which empowers us to survive and to overcome within this context fear is a healthy and useful feature of our psycho-physiology in fact it is a powerful stimlant with extraordinary potential for our betterment however without attempting to get in to how or why i want to submit that people often allow unhealthy fear to be the foundation for a large percentage of their/our decisions for clarity i consider fear to be unhealthy if it is centered around the conviction that one is inadequate for facing the circumstances of ones life its foolish to think that i can count on my ability to defeat a grizzly bear in a boxing match or a tiger shark in a swimming competition but it is an unhealthy fear to refuse the forests and the oceans because i know that grizzly bears and tiger sharks exist a healthy fear is to acknowledge the risks of whatever activity i aspire to and take responsibility for my own safety by understanding them and being prepared to face them and determined that i will overcome them if i am required to. this is the kind of fear that that propels us into excellence because it encourages us to follow our dreams and desires while demanding that we do so with open eyes and alert minds in juxtapositoon to this the kind of fear that comes from the conviction that we are somehow lacking this is the fear which keeps us timid about life and makes us insecure in each others presence which is the source of much violence and injury to one another as it results in a constant sense of having to be more powerful or more in charge or feeling that one is being insulted or attacked when there is no attack or insult intended this is the source imo of unhealthy self fixation to have a sense of ones inherent worth and power as a living consciousness is natural and healthy and the desire to sustain and to expand and to grow and to achieve things and to do and to experience things is a wholesome and healthy characteristic of life of all life imo from human beings to armadillos to redwoods each in its own context but the fear of personal insufficiency leads to people warping and distorting the innate drives to acheive and to actualize into a self fixated impulse to win and to dominate over others and to be dependent on things exterior to the self for well being or acknowledgement or validation this fear invariably results in distorted relationships with the self and from there with all others which are intrinsically less meaningfull, less nourishing, and less reliable than they would be if the fear of insufficiency were not so prevalent this is a moral truth which each of us can attest to in some degree by simply looking at our own lives and while i am not familiar enough with the fiction of star wars to speak in a cannonically accurate manner, i am familiar enough with life to say that this is the essencial distinction between Jedi and the "dark side" in real life there is no dark side of the force there is only the force but there are and will always be people who have yet to reach that place internally where they/we recognise the difference between self actualization and self fixated ego power games its as simple and as challenging as being able to stay grounded in self confidence and love for both the self and the other and it is the loss of this confidence and love which is at the heart of every single act which can be objectively agreed upon to be morally wrong
    • Questions (Last post by Adder)
    • Well for me its like stirring soup, you work the handle but all the action goes on underneath the surface. So how a day is managed represents the nature of ones path but since we try to be almost the opposite of cloistered, its going to be dictated by external conditions mostly I'd guess. In my quiet moments I can knuckle down and focus on specific topics which help me grow and perhaps develop some new ideas or learning. What do you do for your meditations? How long? It varies, mostly forms of yoga to connect to perception of a higher spiritual energy. I originally used periodic calm abiding and compassion meditations (they were always about an hour long) to generate a form of continuous meditation, which I punctuate with emptiness meditations and with deity and structural yogas, much like mandalas. During your week, how often do you do things that pertain to your religion? I'm a Forum Moderator so there is that... but otherwise for the physical side, just exercising of the body side of things. Internally its pretty much ongoing as much as possible. Are there any celebrations unique to your religion? If so, what is it and what do you do for it? How often? I find astronomical things useful to connect outside of my own routine perception, such as planetary alignments, significant transition points (solstices, equinoxes) and phenomena (eclipses)... not in an astrological sense though (which I have no opinion on). Seeing the Moon is always a celebration for me. Dreaming is also important so I try to view them as internal celebrations. The other more conventional celebrations I tend respect and participate in as well, but they seem more cultural and so less about my Jedi path and more about those who it means a lot too. Does one gender have a responsibility that the other does not? No. For me, Jediism transcends concepts like gender, sex, race, or even species!!! I tend to view all life as equal in spirit, but that has some practical problems when it comes to other species of life... while its obvious not all things are equal in capabilities - I don't think we should define someones responsibilities based just on their capabilities, as Jediism is much more about growth and creativity wherever that might be found. What do you do to become higher ranked? If your active within the various systems here then the systems can recognize this and provide you opportunities to extend that activity to better help others. I'm not sure rank offers any benefit though to self but it can help other know a little about the person, as its just an indication of progress, commitment and often duties here. Do you have a right of passage? The Temple has levels of commitment. When I joined it was an Oath to 'be' a 'Jedi' as loosely outlined by the doctrine but open to the individual variations, and later a Vow to be a representation of the doctrine and Temple, as a Temple 'Knight'. But saying that, all this is just my own path and in my opinion of course!!! Good luck with your assignment.
    • The Imperishable Gem (Last post by Cyan Sarden)
    • An einem offenen Paradiesgärtchen geht der Mensch gleichgültig vorbei und wird erst traurig, wenn es verschlossen ist. (Gottfried Keller) ("Man walks by the open paradise garden and doesn't care. Only then does he get sad when said garden is closed.)
    • Workout Check-In Thread (Last post by Jedi_Roz)
    • 15 mins on wiifit, yesterday five min meditation. ;-) it's a start. Finally starting to feel better again.

There are 302 visitors, 12 guests and 28 members online (one in chat): Akkarin, Zanthan Storm, Alethea Thompson, steamboat28, Shadouness, Jestor, Jedi_Roz, Karn, ren, Kitsu Tails, Damion_Storm, Connor L., Burn_Phoenix, Proteus, Alexandre Orion, Llama Su, Archon, Kamizu, Edan, Silvermane, Red_Eye_Jedi, Mathew Erickson, Calanon, Cabur Senaar, focone oceanlast, GalUnDrux, Json, Rocda, Yellow Dragon, Tk768, andyhaynes, Loudzoo, Chocobo, smirq, Atticus509, snydox, falafelfighter.

Follow Us