The Force and Consciousness

Moderators: Adder, Desolous

The Force and Consciousness 05 Sep 2013 17:11 #117398

If your question is, "Does the Force have consciousness?" I would interpret that as, "Is there consciousness within the Force?" to which I would reply that the answer is quite obviously yes. I am a part of the Force and I have consciousness so therefore the Force has consciousness.

If the question intended however was, "Is the Force a consciousness?" I might hesitate to answer. The Force in my belief is not a single consciousness, it is however a collective consciousness. There are billions of consciousnesses all coming together and there are forms of consciousness we cannot explain. I feel that there is no simple answer to this question as posed because consciousness is not an exact science, and mayhaps it never will be. It all comes down to belief and in the end neither side can "win" in the consciousness vs. non-consciousness debate because there is not definitive proof.

So, does the Force have consciousness or does it not?
I must agree with Proteus in saying both and neither.

It is similar to the study of light.
When you test light to see if it acts as a particle, it does.
However when you test light to see if it acts like a wave, it also does.
Is light a particle or a wave?
It is simultaneously both and neither.

It is important to remember that what is observed corresponds directly to how it is being observed.

May the Force be with you,
Rai
"No one entertains the thought that maybe God does not believe in you"
~Bo Burnham

Apprentice under Training Master Senior Knight Ryujin
The following user(s) said Thank You: Jestor, Wescli Wardest, Proteus, Lykeios

The Force and Consciousness 05 Sep 2013 19:18 #117415

  • Rickie
  • Rickie's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • ID: 12235
JohnsonMD wrote:
Let me pose the following question for discussion:

Does the Force have Consciousness?

For the purposes of this discussion, let us assume:
  • Consciousness is defined as: the quality or state of being aware of an external object or something within oneself; Sentience, awareness, subjectivity, the ability to experience or to feel, wakefulness, having a sense of selfhood, and the executive control system of the mind.

If possible, please provide some foundation to your answer - so as to help define what that may be (or not be) and provide insight for those also seeking such knowledge.

Nope The force is a sum but not the whole. Made up of all living forces but is not life or a life as defined above. If it were it would be beyond us anyway and beyond our ability to understand it but that doesn't mean we can know of it.

Don't over/deep think or try too hard to define this stuff this stuff. Just live it. :)

Does a small child deep think or define how to walk? Nope, it just gets up and learns how to walk. :)

Good question though.
I used to call myself Rickie The Grey but that was silly so I wish to be called just plain old "Rickie"

The Force and Consciousness 05 Sep 2013 22:06 #117424

Thanks for the responses everyone!

Some of the thoughts provided I can find common ground with, some of them I cannot.

However, said discussion has brought up topics and other aspects that didn't cross my mind prior, or served to either support or deny what I had already thought.

In the end...I have found this productive and worthwhile.

Thanks!
"There are attempts, and there are accomplishments. Histories only praise one."
The following user(s) said Thank You: Raikoutenshi
Last Edit: 05 Sep 2013 22:06 by JohnsonMD.

The Force and Consciousness 14 Sep 2013 06:39 #118261

JohnsonMD wrote:
sidvkili wrote:
JohnsonMD wrote:
Can you expand on the why/how of that Alexandre?

does everything need deep thought?

I could just respond to that by stating, "yes," but wouldn't be helpful now would it. ;)

Everything needs deep thought so that it can be understood, especially those things which are not self evident. The alternative is to know blindly, which imo is folly.

For example; the boots that I just put on my feet and laced up. They at one point required deep thought(s) so that I could come to understand that:
- They protect my feet,
- they are made out of this and that material,
- they are not water-proof! :(
- they are within the regulations (Army)

etc, etc

That level of thinking isn't too complicated, but it does require that I think about it further than just putting something on my feet and calling it a boot.

Things such as the Force, or God, or dogmatic approaches to life and the great mysteries therein require deep thought. Now, maybe that deep thought is not so deep for other people - however, it is necessary for me to have this understanding. Thus, if I ask for clarification, it is so that I can think more deeply upon what is said to me and thusly apply it to my line of thinking. Answers like, "yes" etc, are not helpful in that cause and only serve to complicate an already complicated issue (regardless of the ease at which the one who states such finds the issue complicated for them or not).

Hope that helps to explain where I am coming from.

yeah, it proves my point.
everything doesn't need deep thought. You need or want deep thought.

I stole my friends lunch a few days ago. Why? because I was hungry and I wanted what he had. Did you understand why I did it? Did it have deep thought?


Nope
I like the stars.

The Force and Consciousness 14 Sep 2013 11:17 #118270

A hypothetical scenario:

Premise 1: I define the Force as an existing, transcendental, conscious, eternal, interactive being. A being that fits not this description is not the Force.
Premise 2: The being we talk about is the Force.
Conclusion: Therefore, the being has consciousness i.e. the Force has consciousness.

This is a form of the ontological argument for the existence of God - by defining an entity in a certain way it becomes impossible for any entity under the same label in the course of the given discussion to be anything else. That way you can prove any property the entity might have like consciousness or existence: If it had not the property, the label would no longer fit.

Now the flaw is, of course, that it can prove everything and therefore is useless in proving anything.
You define the Force as something conscious (or not), and it is conscious (or not) so long as it is the Force.
You define it as existing and it exists so long as it is the Force (or not).
You define it as both invisible and pink and so it becomes. You can see where I'm going here.

Since we haven't observed an entity that we agreed to call the Force, our only way to speak of its properties is in defining it as whatever each of us wants it to be. That's a fun exercise but utterly useless in the end for its only potential is to create disagreements which can not be resolved - while it helps us no bit in learning anything about the Force.
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit. - Stephen W. Hawking

The Force and Consciousness 14 Sep 2013 13:08 #118275

  • Alan
  • Alan's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Knight
  • ID: 10670
A discussion regarding definitions is a helpful beginning to understanding, especially for us as we seek wisdom about the nature of the Force.

Some forms of consciousness are highly cognitive while others are less so, and still other forms (meditation, for example) lack that aspect of consciousness that we might call thinking (that is, thinking as an inner dialogue of words and images about some particular idea or object, cognition as problem-solving, and the like). It has been helpful for me to blur the distinctions that traditionally separate feeling and thinking. Think with the body. Eventually, as Alexander suggests, the cognitive activity of thinking about the Force fades as one lives it.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Alexandre Orion

The Force and Consciousness 14 Sep 2013 14:05 #118280

  • Streen
  • Streen's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • ID: 2215
JohnsonMD wrote:
Does the Force have Consciousness?

Well, the way I see it, we have consciousness, and we are one with the Force, so by extension the Force has consciousness.

You can travel for years and years,
through mountains and deserts,
and never find it.
That is because it was always with you.

The Force and Consciousness 14 Sep 2013 14:48 #118290

Alan wrote:
A discussion regarding definitions is a helpful beginning to understanding, especially for us as we seek wisdom about the nature of the Force.
Bull. If one wishes to learn something about a topic, one better starts studying it and not making things up. Interestingly, if the subject is something real, the observations usually can be confirmed intersubjectively. Now, reality, of course, is in some areas a rather blurry term, but let's not go down that track just yet. Saying that defining a thing helps you understand it, is an admission that the thing in question is not real. Conversely, if it is real, whatever time we spend defining its properties on our own rather than observing them on the object, will be wasted.

Either way, the Force was never too clearly defined here so what the OP ends up with after this thread, is being alone left to make his own opinion on the subject - something he might as well have gotten without this thread altogether.

Also, noone is doing the entirety of the Jedi community any service by defining the Force in his own way. Its not that there haven't been way too well defined gods before and have we not seen enough of where that usually leads? And yet, leaving it undefined leaves the question unanswered... Tough dilemma, isn't it? :D

However, I also realize that this question is more about opinions and less asking for a definite answer, so I should take this a bit easier, I suppose... :blush:
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit. - Stephen W. Hawking
Latest Posts Comments Articles
    • The law of Sin? Or the Law of man? (Last post by Sven One)
    • I have thought about this concept for a few days now and I have done research and compiled my data to share with everyone. I Do hope this doesn't offend anyone here by saying this and/or offend those of the Abraham Jedi (I being one also). This isn't to bash another church/religion but, merely to show another side or view point. Everyone has at least heard of the Ten Commandments once in their lifetime. If not, let me just post it down below for you so that you understand what I am talking about. You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make idols. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Honor your father and your mother. You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. You shall not covet. Ok so, there you have it. For centuries since the Judaism, Christianity and Islamic believes have been around these have been a cornerstone of most known belief systems are based off. Why is this? Because, these three great religions all came from Abraham (Judaism=Moses, Christianity=Christ, Islamic=Ishmael) now, in America at least when I was a kid and my parents and their parents these ten commandments we're a staple in our economy and was the basis of "good" moral values. Now, This is called the Ten Commandments or "The Law" by Moses and Aaron, by Christ and I believe I could be incorrect but also in some parts Islam (They contain some stories from the Christian Bible similar) now, we also have another view point which is going to be my subject and questionaire for my fellow Jedi. This comes from The Apostle Paul from the Epistle to the Romans Chapter 7, What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Now, my point for this is does sin exist outside The Bible? Does sin exist without the ten commandments? Would mankind have ever known what sin was if it wasn't for The Bible? The Torah? (Five books of Moses). My final question is does it matter? Is it reliant in our world today? 1. Does sin exist outside The Bible/Torah, does sin exists outside the ten commandments? A: There are alot of other eastern religions that do talk about "sin" but, it comes in different various forms and names. For example the world sin from the dictionary means: sin1 sin/ noun 1. an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law. "a sin in the eyes of God" synonyms: immoral act, wrong, wrongdoing, act of evil/wickedness, transgression, crime, offense, misdeed, misdemeanor; okay, so the world "Sin" from this diffination seems to be directed into the wrong doing against gods/goddess' but, it also could be pointed at doing an immoral act and so on an so forth. Now, my personal opinion I believe we as luminous beings have infused into us the moral code of "right" and "wrong" but, again I take it a step futher and the famous quote, "Right and wrong is in the eyes of the beholder" one person may argue that wearing white socks to a formal is a sin but, one person may say wearing black socks to a formal is a sin, then you might have the person who cannot afford either or and might wear either color but, again in the eyes of the beholder. 2. Would mankind have know what sin was if it wasn't for The Bible/ The Torah? A: I believe personally from my studies of the worlds religion if The Bible or the Torah wouldn't have ever came into existence, if Christians or the Jewish people never existed there would still be someone out there trying to tell you that they have a better way to live life and some will tell you that better than others (laughs). 3. Is The Ten Commandments the Law of Sin? Or, The Law of Man? A: Being a Christian most of my life, being a former Minister of the gospels do I feel that the Ten commandments are the law of sin? Yes. It is the moral ethic standard for most the the known world for over 2,000 years in many, many countries and many states base their ethic code of conduct based off these ten laws. Is it the law of man? yes and no, I say yes because mankind has followed these as their standard for so many years. No, because the original Author who brought them down from Mt. Sinai so many years ago (believed to be 1393-1273 BCE) Now it said that Moses was up there for forty days and nights with no food or water. Who is to say that he wasn't in mediation? Or, he wasn't at some point doing astral projection? There are Bible accounts of him praying, talking the Yahweh up there and that Yahweh was speaking to him coherently. They say that Yahweh wrote on the tablets of stone Moses had with his own finger. There are many known and factual facts out there of spirits and unknown activity happening in our world that cannot be explained. I am in the belief that we need to get past our materialistic views, scientific views and what we know and reach out in The Force and believe in the unseen and the unheard. Now, I am not sitting here tonight trying to convert anyone to Christianity or, Judaism by any means. But, what I am saying is that how does mankind know good from bad? how is it that we know good from evil? Alan Watts says in his lectures, "How can there be darkness without light?" how is it we perceive one thing being good and one being evil? How is it that we know what is "sin" and what isn't? Is it merely, personal convictions? Or, is it something more? I am curious to know what anyone has to say about this subject hope to see comments. MTFBWY all Sven One
    • Don't crave for more (Last post by Adder)
    • I wrote a short piece about this topic on the wall but it accidentally got deleted :S :lol: Basically I've ended up to subscribing to a capitalist asceticism, which nullifies consumerism by efforts to make efficient use of wealth at the expense of some of the elements of life which coincidentally turn out to be the main drivers of consumerism for me. In the shortest terms; by identifying that wealth is not about accessing goods and services, but rather wealth is about building the capacity to generate wealth. Main elements are reduction of living standards below ones income to build the basis. Requires consistent solid budgeting and involvement/commitment, and initially; self control, being able to live at a lower level of comfort/security/cleaniness etc, and some capacity to earn money above that lower living cost. The main idea being that once someone can build a capacity to generate wealth, it gives them the capacity to stop working for others and direct wealth to projects/causes of interest. The problems are that it's a slow process initially and stays slow for quite awhile, but speeds up as it goes on and really speeds up when it reaches the upper half of whatever market one prefers to focus within - as money tends to make money, so the problem is getting it. The other problem is keeping it, as risk is an ongoing element. So awareness, planning, and risk mitigation all need to be active elements of it - a capacity to fail and recover. Failure is an opportunity to learn and do it better next time. Consumerism is a mix of greed and reward (depending on wealth or poverty level) in simplistic terms, IMO. And following any ascetic path will lead to viewing consumerism as an expression of abject waste, like going the wrong way around a racetrack... your participating but not making progress and indeed literally going backwards. But removing oneself from the system entirely is not a solution for most. My approach means you have less, but you value it more, because what you have is suddenly more important. The ego is not left empty though, as overtime as wealth increases you do find you have the capacity to increase the quality of those things you need but this then still retains the increased meaningfulness and less wasteful benefits of the overall approach. Also though at these stages one's character is tempted by greed as things become accessible - but its the same concept of capitalistic asceticism which can challenge and defeat that too. The point being more things can be done with wealth then without it, the key issue is how is that wealth being used which in regards to Jedi is hopefully in a 'good' (?) way. The biggest challenge is it's a difficult journey and life is indeed short... so I don't claim its the right thing to do for everyone. Just my 2cents!!!
    • The Force (Last post by CryojenX)
    • Quote: Quote: People with migraines are prone to see flashes of patterns and shapes and images, when I close my eyes and stuff is flashing by at a million miles an hour, I crawl in bed and wait for the storm to hit, so to speak. I'm sorry to hear that, CryojenX. I know what it's like to dread going to bed. I used to have nightmares every night. I usually ended up in the morning feeling like I hadn't slept at all. I know that's somewhat beside the point, but have you tried getting help for this problem? Yeah, I see a neurologist, I've got meds, they're... somewhat effective. Sorry if I derailed the thread. though.
    • climate change (Last post by ZenJo)
    • Many animal and plant species have adapted to the rise of industial humanity by adapting traits to combat human presence and pollution. The example of the Peppered Moth is often given by evolutionary scientists. So I predict that animals and plants will fair better than we might expect in the coming climate change through their ability to adapt. At the same time, of course, many species may not survive the changes. However, I have to wonder about how modern humans will adapt to climate change. I believe that our ancestors, if placed in our current predicament, might fair better than modern humanity. Ancient humans seemed to have deeper connection to the Earth in their culture and way of life. But our modern world seems to have lost quite a bit of that connection. How many times have I seen someone throw McDonald's bags out their car window even though they are only a few miles from their house and a garbage can? Or people who throw their cigarette butts on the ground right beside the cigarette disposal bin? Or companies that STILL find ways to illegally dump chemical waste? If so many of us can't be trusted to prevent pollution and take climate change seriously, how can we be trusted to adapt to the changing world we have created? If climate changes become more severe, crops will not produce as high of yields. Recent studies have showns rises in drought which leads to food and water scarcity. I admit that many politicians worldwide have used the climate change issue to win votes. In doing so, they destroy the credibility of legit scientists who are actually doing something productive. I don't think we are neccesarily facing an "end-of-the-world" scenario, but hopefully it will be an end to laziness and apathy when the effects of climate change become more severe. One thing that has me bothered is all the stories I have been hearing in the news in recent years of tons of fish, whales, and sharks washing up dead on beaches. In each of the stories, I never hear scientists make any conclusive statements as to the cause of death. Is it Fukishima radiation? Underwater volcanoes? Changes in water temperature?
    • Examples of Deep, Knightly-Virtuous Truths, Learne... (Last post by Dessel761)
    • "You step outside, you risk your life. You take a drink of water, you risk your life. And nowadays you breathe, and you risk your life. Every moment now... you don't have a choice. The only thing you can choose is what you're risking it for. Now, I can make these people feel better and hang on a little bit longer. I can save lives. And that's enough reason to risk mine." —Hershel to his daughter Maggie and Rick Grimes, regarding the situation in the prison with the flu and how he could help the ailing people
    • Thandie Newton & Watts (Last post by Dessel761)
    • I was watching TED talks on vulnerability and shame from another thread. As I started branching out from those topics I came across this: www.ted.com/talks/thandie_newton_embraci...cing_myself#t-821483 I must say that this short video fits nicely with the teachings of Watts and The Book. There are similar ideas presented in both that I feel have helped to enhance my understanding of what Watts is saying.
    • Empathy and Sympathy: The Difference (Last post by Dessel761)
    • Quote: If you like that, than you might like this too. Very great talk on vulnerability including info on empathy vs sympathy. www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability?language=en That was a great talk and this was one a year later goes hand in hand: www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_listening_to_shame#t-1209647
    • Current Weightloss (Last post by Metsu Desal)
    • Hello TOTJO! So been a while since I posted anything but I figured I would share something with you. This is my current weightloss, I'm eating healthier and exercising 5 times a week for at least an hour and loving it, wondering if there's any other ToTJO Jedi that are currently losing weight and / or have lost weight? Some noticeable benefits - I can wrap a towel around my waist when I get out the shower - Clothes fit more comfortably than tight - People are giving me lots of praise - People are treating me nicer and my mood is higher [image]
    • Its not Fat or Sugar to worry about, its Fat with ... (Last post by Cyan Sarden)
    • Quote: I do love dark chocolate.... especially the weird stuff with fruit in it (well, it seems weird to me because as a kid we only ever got it from the hypermarkets in Calais!). But maybe I can be tempted to buy some... Yeah - same here, it used to be only available in specialty shops (and I live in the land of chocolate and watches :-). Now Lindt and some other major manufacturers have started mass-manufacturing it and most supermarket chains carry it. You can get it all the way up to 98% cocoa (which doesn't contain much sugar, if any, but tastes very bitter)

There are 393 visitors, 11 guests and 24 members online (none in chat): Br. John, Sarus, steamboat28, Shadouness, Sven One, Adder, Reacher, Vusuki, Llama Su, Kamizu, Edan, Jamie Stick, carlos.martinez3, Cristris_Jons, Aqua, Jeffery Williams, Rocda, Cyan Sarden, Loudzoo, Krieger, Tellahane, herbalc, OJMyers, Athena_Undomiel, Majelann, HeirOfLight, latiag, Katash Weivorki, Twelve, gombicek, Médérig, Jeyham.

Follow Us