help with rural town usa

Moderators: Adder, Adhara

Re: help with rural town usa 16 Feb 2012 02:12 #50598

Nope, that sounds about right. A Shadow Jedi (he happens to be Christian) once made the statement that most Christians are "Churchians".
Alethea "Setanaoko" Thompson
Apprentice to Br. John
randomthoughtsuniversity.wordpress.com/

Re: help with rural town usa 16 Feb 2012 04:30 #50614

Proteus wrote:
This comment here is not intended for any offense toward any Christians here. It is simply an observation and a view that I have been learning about slowly, more and more through the years and simply reflects that learning.

Christianity from my point of experiencing and watching it, both inside the box and later, outside the box, has come to express, in many places I've lived, more as an institution than just a personal belief. As Alan Watts has talked about in certain articles, it is a monarchical religion, and reflects a system in which the followers are servants of a "king" who "protect the king and his throne" from ever being questioned and threatened. There are a great number of people in America (and probably in other countries as well) who seem to follow Christianity as only because it is a trend and not because it is actually what they believe. Many people think that if they don't follow the major trend, that those around them will condemn them (and many do unfortunately).

What really makes me think about things, is the idea of the "preacher who quits the church" (and I'll explain why this seems important to me). There have been many former Christians who have worked for their church's clergy, who, after a point, begin coming to more and more of a personal conclusion about exactly what in the bible is not literally true. They do come to discover a great deal of factual history surrounding the bible and then come to realize how the bible is used and interpreted by the church to sway the church's followers into certain frames of mind. Once he discovers so much of this, he cannot bear continuing to do what he has done any longer and quits the clergy. However, sometimes I come to suspect that certain people like Christian preachers, may actually already know factually what the bible is and what the bible is not. However, their goal with the church, as an institution is no more a personal one, but rather ... well, an institutional one. For all you know, he could be completely and utterly aware of reality as, say, a pure land Jedi might see it, for example, but will never reveal such a thing. In turn, having now existing outside of the box, he may use this knowledge to further power clever ways of using Christianity to fulfill the church's institutional goals, including how to word and phrase things that he has learned triggers people more and more into conviction toward his denomination of Christianity. Not only that, but this knowledge and awareness gives him a very acute advantage toward outsiders who come to debate against Christianity. Seeing as how the preacher is not living inside the Christian "box", and actually knows the various weak points that exist both inside and outside of it, he learns how to block out outsider's "ammo", and even how to turn their own words against the outsider. I've actually watched this happen several times with a guy who ran a Christian coffeehouse. He loved to debate because he knew, psychologically how to turn anybody's words around on them to diffuse any point they attempt to make.

Anyway, like I said, this is simply an observation I've had. And who knows, maybe I'm way behind the progress line of awareness of this view among many Jedi here at this temple about it, but I still find it a pretty legitimate thing to consider when confronting a dedicated follower of Christianity and the church.



HA! I guess I'll share a little of my personal story. I was just asking my dad last month to describe to me his personal bliss. I told him that "God" was a perfectly acceptable answer, but I find many people have something outside of religion that makes them at peace with the world... Being that he is a chaplain/preacher, I got this answer... [When I'm in the middle of a sermon and people are really into what I'm preaching. It's like my voice is the word of god, and I have the congregation in the palm of my hand. I could lead them to do anything in that exact moment....] It was very telling to me! What he REALLY wants is control of a congregation. He's a performer! My mom used to tell me, he could make the Bible say anything knowing ancient Greek and Latin. So, I'm careful of anybody who claims to have the direct gospel now.. There's always undercurrent of hypnotist and the schemer!

Re: help with rural town usa 16 Feb 2012 04:46 #50617

  • V-Tog
  • V-Tog's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Senior Knight
  • Priest
  • ID: 9122
Proteus wrote:
This comment here is not intended for any offense toward any Christians here. It is simply an observation and a view that I have been learning about slowly, more and more through the years and simply reflects that learning.

Christianity from my point of experiencing and watching it, both inside the box and later, outside the box, has come to express, in many places I've lived, more as an institution than just a personal belief. As Alan Watts has talked about in certain articles, it is a monarchical religion, and reflects a system in which the followers are servants of a "king" who "protect the king and his throne" from ever being questioned and threatened. There are a great number of people in America (and probably in other countries as well) who seem to follow Christianity as only because it is a trend and not because it is actually what they believe. Many people think that if they don't follow the major trend, that those around them will condemn them (and many do unfortunately).

What really makes me think about things, is the idea of the "preacher who quits the church" (and I'll explain why this seems important to me). There have been many former Christians who have worked for their church's clergy, who, after a point, begin coming to more and more of a personal conclusion about exactly what in the bible is not literally true. They do come to discover a great deal of factual history surrounding the bible and then come to realize how the bible is used and interpreted by the church to sway the church's followers into certain frames of mind. Once he discovers so much of this, he cannot bear continuing to do what he has done any longer and quits the clergy. However, sometimes I come to suspect that certain people like Christian preachers, may actually already know factually what the bible is and what the bible is not. However, their goal with the church, as an institution is no more a personal one, but rather ... well, an institutional one. For all you know, he could be completely and utterly aware of reality as, say, a pure land Jedi might see it, for example, but will never reveal such a thing. In turn, having now existing outside of the box, he may use this knowledge to further power clever ways of using Christianity to fulfill the church's institutional goals, including how to word and phrase things that he has learned triggers people more and more into conviction toward his denomination of Christianity. Not only that, but this knowledge and awareness gives him a very acute advantage toward outsiders who come to debate against Christianity. Seeing as how the preacher is not living inside the Christian "box", and actually knows the various weak points that exist both inside and outside of it, he learns how to block out outsider's "ammo", and even how to turn their own words against the outsider. I've actually watched this happen several times with a guy who ran a Christian coffeehouse. He loved to debate because he knew, psychologically how to turn anybody's words around on them to diffuse any point they attempt to make.

Anyway, like I said, this is simply an observation I've had. And who knows, maybe I'm way behind the progress line of awareness of this view among many Jedi here at this temple about it, but I still find it a pretty legitimate thing to consider when confronting a dedicated follower of Christianity and the church.

I've said elsewhere on TOTJO before that I think that Christianity seems to vary wildly across factions and countries. It always really saddens me to hear of some of the ways that Christianity is used to try to bully and scare people (particularly in America it seems, although at the same time I am sure that the majority of American churches do not do this) - I have never really encountered Christianity being used in this way in the Anglican Church of England, and I have experience of many different churches, cathedrals and clergy so it can't just be my church! Over here it's very much about finding your own path and respecting the Bible whilst also acknowledging that a lot of it cannot be taken literally (and definitely not used to threaten people!), in much the same way that we approach Jediism, I might add. It is a shame, and rather shocking, to hear so many stories of places where this is not the case. :(
Last Edit: 16 Feb 2012 04:48 by V-Tog.

Re: help with rural town usa 16 Feb 2012 05:17 #50623

V-Tog wrote:
Proteus wrote:
This comment here is not intended for any offense toward any Christians here. It is simply an observation and a view that I have been learning about slowly, more and more through the years and simply reflects that learning.

Christianity from my point of experiencing and watching it, both inside the box and later, outside the box, has come to express, in many places I've lived, more as an institution than just a personal belief. As Alan Watts has talked about in certain articles, it is a monarchical religion, and reflects a system in which the followers are servants of a "king" who "protect the king and his throne" from ever being questioned and threatened. There are a great number of people in America (and probably in other countries as well) who seem to follow Christianity as only because it is a trend and not because it is actually what they believe. Many people think that if they don't follow the major trend, that those around them will condemn them (and many do unfortunately).

What really makes me think about things, is the idea of the "preacher who quits the church" (and I'll explain why this seems important to me). There have been many former Christians who have worked for their church's clergy, who, after a point, begin coming to more and more of a personal conclusion about exactly what in the bible is not literally true. They do come to discover a great deal of factual history surrounding the bible and then come to realize how the bible is used and interpreted by the church to sway the church's followers into certain frames of mind. Once he discovers so much of this, he cannot bear continuing to do what he has done any longer and quits the clergy. However, sometimes I come to suspect that certain people like Christian preachers, may actually already know factually what the bible is and what the bible is not. However, their goal with the church, as an institution is no more a personal one, but rather ... well, an institutional one. For all you know, he could be completely and utterly aware of reality as, say, a pure land Jedi might see it, for example, but will never reveal such a thing. In turn, having now existing outside of the box, he may use this knowledge to further power clever ways of using Christianity to fulfill the church's institutional goals, including how to word and phrase things that he has learned triggers people more and more into conviction toward his denomination of Christianity. Not only that, but this knowledge and awareness gives him a very acute advantage toward outsiders who come to debate against Christianity. Seeing as how the preacher is not living inside the Christian "box", and actually knows the various weak points that exist both inside and outside of it, he learns how to block out outsider's "ammo", and even how to turn their own words against the outsider. I've actually watched this happen several times with a guy who ran a Christian coffeehouse. He loved to debate because he knew, psychologically how to turn anybody's words around on them to diffuse any point they attempt to make.

Anyway, like I said, this is simply an observation I've had. And who knows, maybe I'm way behind the progress line of awareness of this view among many Jedi here at this temple about it, but I still find it a pretty legitimate thing to consider when confronting a dedicated follower of Christianity and the church.

I've said elsewhere on TOTJO before that I think that Christianity seems to vary wildly across factions and countries. It always really saddens me to hear of some of the ways that Christianity is used to try to bully and scare people (particularly in America it seems, although at the same time I am sure that the majority of American churches do not do this) - I have never really encountered Christianity being used in this way in the Anglican Church of England, and I have experience of many different churches, cathedrals and clergy so it can't just be my church! Over here it's very much about finding your own path and respecting the Bible whilst also acknowledging that a lot of it cannot be taken literally (and definitely not used to threaten people!), in much the same way that we approach Jediism, I might add. It is a shame, and rather shocking, to hear so many stories of places where this is not the case. :(

You English folk will never know the horror of the Southern Baptist Convention... I never thought I'd say this, but for once, my Irish-American self envies your people.
I love the doctrine.

Re: help with rural town usa 16 Feb 2012 05:36 #50628

  • V-Tog
  • V-Tog's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Senior Knight
  • Priest
  • ID: 9122
Star Forge wrote:
V-Tog wrote:
I've said elsewhere on TOTJO before that I think that Christianity seems to vary wildly across factions and countries. It always really saddens me to hear of some of the ways that Christianity is used to try to bully and scare people (particularly in America it seems, although at the same time I am sure that the majority of American churches do not do this) - I have never really encountered Christianity being used in this way in the Anglican Church of England, and I have experience of many different churches, cathedrals and clergy so it can't just be my church! Over here it's very much about finding your own path and respecting the Bible whilst also acknowledging that a lot of it cannot be taken literally (and definitely not used to threaten people!), in much the same way that we approach Jediism, I might add. It is a shame, and rather shocking, to hear so many stories of places where this is not the case. :(

You English folk will never know the horror of the Southern Baptist Convention... I never thought I'd say this, but for once, my Irish-American self envies your people.

You're right I expect, I probably wont, and I wasn't really aware of how bad it is in some places before reading some of the stories and reasons behind some of the anti-Christian views here, and it is impossible to be offended by such opinions when they have often been influenced by such rigid views and general bizarre behavior from the Christian church itself. Can't speak for other people from England, but I seem to be horribly ignorant of Christianity outside of the confines of my comfortable first hand experience, and although it is not nice to hear about, I suppose it is an important part of spiritual development to understand the different ways in which a religion is put across to people. I certainly feel a lot more understanding of 'Christianity-bashers' for having been here and learnt a bit more about what some of you in America (and other places) have to put up with! It feels important to note that despite all of my positive experiences I am sure that not every church in England is perfect in this respect either.

I'm getting slightly off topic, but I think that there is little that I can add to all of the helpful advice that has already been given. Good luck BDPulver, may the Force be with you as you try to sort out this complicated situation.

Re: help with rural town usa 16 Feb 2012 11:12 #50641

Just thought that as a Christian, I should chime in here. These are my personal opinions and beliefs. Even though I do call myself a Christian, I don't particularly follow the the church. I do believe it to be a bit institutionalized. I believe that the church guides us, but at the same time, controls us.

I am a Methodist. I have talked to many Methodists who have come to this denomination from the Catholic church, because of how strict and how controlling it is. There was a couple that just recently joined the church that I occasionally go to. They left because they wanted to have their child baptized. BUT, because the father had come in from a different denomination (I believe he was Baptist) he and his wife would have had to go through some year long process, which included classes and approval from the clergy. They also were told that in order to take communion, they had to go through classes. The strictness and the control were just too much for them.

They came to our church, and were immediately greeted by numerous people with genuine smiles. They talked with the pastors who immediately set up a meeting with them to discuss the Methodist church, answer any questions, and then set up the time and date for the baptism of their child.

Now I don't mean to demean the Catholic church, just pointing out my observations of what I have seen and heard personally. Of all the denominations, they are ones with the most rules and are VERY strict. I would say that the Methodists seem to be the most laid back, but this would be because I've only ever been in small churches (200 members and below...I grew up in a 40 member church, worked in a 60 member and another 150 member church, and now attend a 200 member church).

Anyway, I don't always follow the teachings of the church. I fight for gay rights, as I believe in equality among all human beings. I fight for the right of people to worship whatever deity they wish, and I do not condemn them for it (3 of my best friends are agnostic). While I am open about my relationship with Christ and God, if I get the feeling that i'm starting to shove my religion down someone's throat, I stop. I don't want to be that person. I like to mix in some maturity with my Christian faith, which, let's admit, most of us Christian lack. In America, we believe in freedom and equality...as long as you're a Christian. It's sad, but true. The "as long as you're a Christian" is not written, but it's obviously there.

I can go on and on all day about this, and I am always learning more about the gaps between my beliefs that those of the church. So yes, I am a Christian, but I am not a church Christian...I guess that's the best way to describe it, lol.
At first, I thought I was going crazy...but then the gummy bears and unicorn told me I was just fine.
Latest Posts Comments Articles
    • No Emotion, eh? (Last post by Connor L.)
    • So, I teach Creed 101 at another Jedi Site. I had a student taking the course who completely interpreted the Creed in such a way that it wasn't helpful to her. I pondered for a long time what she had said, and really asked myself how I could help her. This is what I came up with, and I think it's pretty good so I'm sharing. I encourage everybody, including myself, to follow this advice. It came to me from my own teachers, my mental faculties, and from the Force. Quote: Mia, let's have a chat about the code. You are looking at it from a very limited point of view. It's an interesting point of view, but it is very limited. So limited in fact, that it is only within your body. You are reactive to your emotions. When you feel, you act on impulse. When you fear, you lash out. In a way, this is how an animal without complex thinking reacts. To them, emotions are actions. Action --> Stimulus to you --> Emotion --> Reaction. You become the epitome of linear motion. It's rather boring, don't you think? Humans are wonderfully complex beings. We have developed the capability to add a step in the process: Action --> Stimulus to you --> Emotion --> THOUGHT --> Reaction. We can stop our reaction to ponder our emotions. We can view them from the outside. We can analyze. We can write it down. We can internalize and gestate in it. We can meditate on it, we can lash out from it. We have options. What your next step is is this: Ask yourself, "What can I do to better be aware of my emotions". I'd like you to try an exercise. At least for a day, but hopefully as many days as you can muster. Please keep a small journal with you. If you have to, just some torn off paper in your pocket and a pen. Whenever you feel an emotion, stop yourself quietly by shouting in your head: "EMOTION". And, don't react to it. Stop and write it down, whatever it is. "Anger at ___ because ___" "Happiness because ___" Don't react to the good or the bad right away. After you've acknowledged it, then you can either take on that anger again, or you can take on that happiness again. Or whatever the emotion is. When you've done this, you will not have reacted.. you will have CHOSEN your emotion. This is what the Jedi code means when it says: "There is no Emotion; there is peace". We choose our emotions from a peaceful setting. If we take on anger, it is because we are using it as a tool, not because it is using us as a slave. And, would you CHOOSE fear? Is fear necessary? Maybe so. If you become fearful of a gun pointed at you, and you ponder for a split second that this fear might just save your life if you can harness it... then so be it! Use that fear and adrenaline to get you away from the gun. When you do this exercise for a bit, a day or so... you can stop writing it down (which only serves to force you to disconnect from it) and just tell yourself: "Stop, think... Ok, go." When you can detach yourself from your emotions at a whim... when you have the choice to make: You can then find the moments where you can react in time. :D You can get 2 thousand dollars and make the choice immediately to be excited. You can get a letter summoning you to court, and you can CHOOSE either to be sad or happy in spite of it. When you have the power, then you will be in control of your life. When you don't have emotions taking away your freedom... you have the chance to really win. Good luck. -Con.
    • Jedi Altar (Last post by J. K. Barger)
    • Yessss.. Yess.... :evil: :evil: Converted!!! :laugh: AAAAAAmen!!! LOL
    • Why a Jedi Knight ? (Last post by Arcade)
    • Quote: On their initial interview, Matajuro asked Tsukahara Bokuden, "How long will it take me to master the sword?" Bokuden replied, "Oh, about five years if you train very hard." "If I train twice as hard, how long will it take?" inquired Matajuro. "In that case, ten years," retorted Bokuden. This is great. :) Thanks, Mike.
    • The Order of the Good Death (Last post by Edan)
    • Quote: I think the topic may be straying a bit from the actual content of their site though. :P Perhaps, but I think healthy discussion is always good.
    • There is no Death (Last post by Zenchi)
    • Many users of the drug known as DMT report interacting with entities that exhibit intelligence while on a DMT trip, and theorize that the drug could be used as a gate to parallel dimensions. Joe Rogan himself has stated that death could be nothing more than a door to this very same dimension as the brain floods with DMT at or right before the moment of death... www.spiritscienceandmetaphysics.com/can-...a-parallel-universe/ www.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/dmt_writings2.shtml
    • Visions (Last post by Whyte Horse)
    • Quote: Okay, I can see where you're going with that, Whyte Horse. I think it's more a matter of how do you deal with the information you are getting from these visions. For some, they will recluse and ignore the outside chaos, because it simply is not where they need to be. For others it is joining the fight against such things they see as detrimental to society. I would be curious to know, what does one do when they have visions which help interpret what they are witnessing and the cycle it is flowing in... I dunno, foresight can be very advantageous. When I was in Bangkok during the revolution, they shut down the mass transit... but I had my scooter all ready to go and was able to get to work and the store. When they jammed traffic with a 10000 car procession, I was able to hop onto the sidewalks and go around or weave in and out. When they flipped over the buses and built tire barricades on the roads I was able to hop onto the canal/sewer boats and go around. I've already setup my home to be self-sufficient and am working on getting out of the US by 2016. I just don't think it will be possible to function in a collapsing society with people stealing your garden vegetables and the possibility of surviving an attack from an armed group are pretty slim. Either way, the gov't will take over eventually. When that happens, they'll scour the NSA database for everything anyone ever said and retroactively persecute anyone they want. So it would be best to just not be inside the country at all.
    • The Nazis (Last post by Whyte Horse)
    • Quote: I can respect a healthy mistrust of the government - of any government. Governments should be held accountable to their people in all respects and at all times, and a people should never become complacent in their regard for the government they have elected to power. I can also agree that a massive portion of this, and other, countries have allowed just that. However, that said, let us look at things as neutrally as possible. It is my concerned opinion that in order to stand any chance of ascertaining the truth in matters such as this (where all the pieces involved are incredibly complicated and difficult to fathom without several degrees in geo-politics and governmental law), the interested observer should do his or her best to remove his or her own beliefs, fears, etc., as far as possible from the situation under observation. I point to this quote in the article posted above: "Snowden, addressing the Council of Europe in Strasbourg, said he did not believe the NSA was engaged in 'nightmare scenarios,' such as the active compilation of a list of homosexuals 'to round them up and send them into camps.' But he did say that the infrastructure allowing this to happen had been built. " Why is the infrastructure in place? That is a valid question, and locating valid proof of this infrastructure should be the next step in this line of inquiry, but I believe that jumping to any conclusion regarding something like this is in itself a dangerous road to follow. That road leads us into ambiguity, uncertainty, fear, paranoia, and a sharp disregard for the importance of fact. Indeed it seems to me to be in the opposite direction that a Jedi, or any concerned critical thinker, should be applying their energies. Follow the story if it concerns you, but follow it dispassionately; with resolve, but not with haste or dogmatic fervor. (Not that anyone was or is - I'm just preachin' here. ;) ) Well, there was a quote that said most classified information can be deduced by connecting the dots. I used to be one of those people that dismissed as a conspiracy theory anything that didn't have solid proof. It turns out that the majority of them were true. The Snowden leaks gave us proof of things that were thought to be science fiction. So I'm just going to connect the dots and deduce the classified info.
    • Jediism... Religion, Chioce or Philosophy.... (Last post by Salvazor)
    • I think that Jediism can be any or all of those things, I definitely see it as a philosophy or a social and ethical system to live your life by. It can function as a religion in that it can perform similar functions such as marriages and offering a world view. Although their is no deity in Jediism just the force, Buddhism and Taoism on a philosophical do not have a monotheistic god to worship, I would defiantly say that Jediism is a religion, for me a way of life.
    • iPhone Calmness Apps (Last post by Edan)
    • I use Insight Timer. (play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=co...ghtsix.zentimerlite2) Plays gongs at the beginning and end of a period of time so you can time your meditation. It has other things but that's all I use it for.

There are 150 visitors, 2 guests and 18 members online (one is in chat): Gaia Chi, RyuJin, Proteus, Luthien, Locksley, Llama Su, Archon, Cyrith, Edan, Zenchi, jamesjohnston1741, TheImpailerXx, Trice Corbel, kevinabdiel, Jamie Stick, Android, Xan Montagu, EEJim.

Follow Us