An Unpopular Conviction

Moderators: Adder, Adhara

Re: An Unpopular Conviction 17 Feb 2012 11:26 #50721

Star Forge wrote:
You know, in a way, I am sorry I even shared this. It's just, I cannot understand how people think. Human reproduction, to me, is physically disgusting, sociologically damaging, morally repugnant, and totally avoidable. People explaining how great it is to me are just as outlandish as would be someone explaining how fulfulling it is to eat feces.

Does anybody here watch The Big Bang Theory? Doesn't he sound just like Sheldon Cooper? :P Not really on topic, just gave me a good chuckle and couldn't help but point it out, lol.
At first, I thought I was going crazy...but then the gummy bears and unicorn told me I was just fine.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Proteus, Locksley

Re: An Unpopular Conviction 17 Feb 2012 11:41 #50725

Your belief is not new. There have been people who believed similar things for various reasons throughout history.

For reasons which should be obvious, most of the original people who believed these things are not around anymore.

At any rate, what it really comes down to is whether "suffering" is that bad a thing in the first place. It gives us something to challenge us. Overcoming the challenge is what life is about.

The line of thought you have led yourself down is similar to the line of thought of people who contemplate suicide... and its realization is, in essence, the slow suicide of the species.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Learn_To_Know

Re: An Unpopular Conviction 17 Feb 2012 13:04 #50732

*Warning, everything posted below is on the assumption that you are a Christian based on the first quote I am about to post. If you are not, then most of this won't really pertain to you.*
Star Forge wrote:
I mean, is the idea of a Christian, fairly conservative, heterosexual, American man being against reproduction so horribly alien?

Actually, yes. Genesis Chapter 1, Verse 27-28a:
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it;"
Yes, I think that human reproduction is immoral, as it is not our place to create a sentient being which has no will or say in whether or not it will exist.

Once again, back to the verse above. The very first chapter of the Bible, the very first page, the final day of creation, and he commanded man and woman to reproduce. And if it is morally wrong to force life onto the earth, why did God do it? And why did he tell us to do it? And why did he give us the power to create life if it's not our place?
Well, the Genesis part is all figurative, and only retarded creationists take that stuff literally.

So i'm retarded? You have really stooped down to name calling for someone who does not agree with you? I find it insulting and do not appreciate it. Not exactly the Jedi way. Especially for someone who believes that everyone has a right to believe what they want.
I think our reproductive habits are not something he is too concerned about, or even takes cognizance of, even though many Christians consider sexual behavior and the prohibitions thereof to be key tenets of Christianity.

..........uh, have you really read the Bible? lol Sex is all over the Bible. And let's not forget that God bestowed a child unto Mary and her cousin. Although, I can see where you will go with this one. Mary was a virgin, and her cousin was supposed to be too old and most likely her and her husband did not have sex. But still...God forcefully procreated man in this instance, without even asking them "hey, is it ok if I knock you up?" He forced the pain and suffering of child birth upon them. He created John to prepare the way for Jesus, and Jesus to prepare the way to Heaven. God really didn't have to do any of this. It was simply His way of proving His love for us.

Now all of these responses i've given have been in thinking that you are a Christian, a conclusion I came to with the first quote of this post. I know this is a topic that will always lead in circles, and is probably a thread that needs to just die away quickly as it leads to nowhere, lol, but I just really felt that I should post my feelings on all of this as well.

I should also point out that while some of these things have probably already been discussed, I'll admit that I was writing as I was reading through the thread (I did skip a few pages) and just didn't want to delete anything because it was what I was thinking at the time and I like for my thoughts to be shared.

And I would like to end on one final note:
I will again remind you all that just because life contains some enjoyment does not make it desirable.

Uh...I disagree. For example, if I were to die, and I were given the chance to live again from the very beginning, knowing all the pain and suffering I would go through in life, I would gladly choose that option. Not because I don't want to blink out of existence or not because I don't want to go to Heaven (a bit of an odd choice to make, lol), but because there are so many joys in life that I find myself wanting again, even knowing that pain and suffering come with them. I do NOT enjoy the pain and suffering AT ALL, but it's a part of life for every living being. But I find the joys of life very pleasurable, and would not mind the pain and suffering, as those come and go throughout life. Perhaps it's because I don't dwell on them? I learn from them and move on.
At first, I thought I was going crazy...but then the gummy bears and unicorn told me I was just fine.

Re: An Unpopular Conviction 17 Feb 2012 14:05 #50734

Learn_To_Know wrote:
Hal_littleeye wrote:
(I'm soooooo going to be chastised by someone for posting here, I just know it.):whistle: :pinch: :side: :lol: :P

I CAN NOT believe...you should be ashamed...I mean really...this is nuts...can you even THINK? I mean WT---Seriously, your intelligence.......

Nah, just kidding. I enjoyed your post.

----

I'm disappointed Star Forge never responded to Master Jon's question: what's wrong with suffering?

----

I can salute someone that sticks to their views to a point. But when he's talking about annihilation (that is if everyone followed his point-of-view) I don't salute it; I just think it's absurd. But I'm glad he posted his thoughts though. It was very interesting reading this thread while it was happening.

MTFBWY,
LTK


I didn't mean that I saluted his beliefs, I think they're... well nuts. :P But I do respect anyone who can... erm... stick to their beliefs blindly? :pinch: :P It was brave of him to post something that controversial is all. And interesting, I'm really glad that I know of the antinatalist movement, it's good to know about things like that... like you said-interesting.

Anyway, glad you liked my post. I was just worried that someone would be unhappy that a resurrected such an old and heated thread. I'm new here lol, don't want to step on any toes! ;)
"My life, though ordinary enough, seems to haunt me-in uncommon ways." -David Holzman's Diary
“Stars, hide your fires; Let not light see my black and deep desires.” - Macbeth
Last Edit: 17 Feb 2012 14:07 by Locksley.

Re: An Unpopular Conviction 17 Feb 2012 21:15 #50746

This horse has been beaten to death, I think. Just one more kick for posterity, though.

I am reminded of a quote from the immortal Captian James T Kirk:

"Damn it Bones, you're a doctor. You know that pain and guilt can't be taken away with the wave of a magic wand. They're the things we carry with us, the things that make us who we are. If we lose them, we lose ourselves. [to Sybok] I don't want my pain taken away! I need my pain!"

this was from Star Trek V. I know it's one of the worst in the series, but the quote is relevant. Here's why:
In this scene Sybok, Spock's brother, is attempting to turn Spock, Kirk, and Doctor McCoy to his way of thinking by forcing them to face moments in their past which have caused them great suffering.

The point is that without suffering, without struggle, the very thing that tempers us as human beings... we are as nothing. It makes us strong, makes us who we are. Suffering and pain mold and shape our lives every bit as much as love and kindness. You say "what right have we to force suffering on others?" I say what right have we to deny it?
The following user(s) said Thank You: Learn_To_Know, Locksley
Latest Posts Comments Articles
    • Gisteron (Last post by Khaos)
    • Quote: Why do you and Gisteron often questions others beliefs, but put not theories of your own out for inspection... Do you have your own theories? Or just science? Gisteron pretty much nailed it on the head, however... Perhaps whats really more interesting is why we are asking questions others do not. As for "Theories of you own" I have not seen anything so singular or original in thought put forth here. Its not as if Star Wars, Alan Watts, Joseph Campbell, etc, are original. We do not draw from the same sources, but that doesnt make anything put forth "ones own." You ask why we dont put things up for inspection. I would ask why you dont inspect what we put forth. Most conversations here are people stating things, and other people stating things. Sometimes in agreement, and sometimes not. However, there are very few questions asked. Which, in a place where definition and words are used and changed so liberally, I am truly suprised.
    • Connor is back (Last post by Psyddhattha)
    • My brother trained as an opera singer then after college pretty much gave up singing and did various jobs for ten years or so. He's just got back into it and although he is less financially stable he seems much happier than he has in years now he's teaching and performing again. Follow your bliss man!
    • Best star wars movie/scene (Last post by Luthien)
    • I also like the scene where the two Skywalkers, father and son, duel it out and the father's love of his son empowered him to save the son.
    • What Jedi in canon reminded Light their entire car... (Last post by Streen)
    • It depends on what you consider canon. Here's a list off the top of my head: Streen Tionne Kam Solusar Anakin Solo Corran Horn (aka Keiran Halcyon) Leia Organa Solo more I just looked up (but should have remembered) :dry: : Dorsk 81 Kirana Ti Cilghal Ganner Rhysode Tenel Ka Lowbacca Ben Skywalker That's a surprisingly short list though, considering how many Jedi there are in the EU. I found that all the others I read about did have a brush with the dark side. Not a great track record, eh?
    • Elite: Dangerous (Last post by Streen)
    • If I'm not mistaken, open Beta starts today. Ya'll might want to see if you can download it :D Adder, have you played the game? I ask because you basically described exactly what the game is like. Energy weapons, ballistics, energy transfers between weapons, shields, and engines, gimballed weapons, locking weapons on target... that's all fact. Of course, you have to make money in-game to afford the better weapon systems and larger and/or higher quality ships. The one thing I love about the game is the same thing I hate. It's complicated. I've been playing for a couple weeks now and I still haven't figured out what I'm supposed to do, or some of the more unclear functions of my ship. But then, that's cool, because it means I can do whatever I want. The main problem is making money/trading. Still haven't figured that out either. Quote: Are there 400 thousand million stars in this galaxy ? :huh: I'm sorry, LOL. :silly: The game doesn't take place in OUR galaxy. The number is right, as the game claims, though I imagine it is somehow randomized since it would be impossible to program 400 billion star systems. One last point to make is that to play the game properly, you'll need a joystick. I've tried playing with a mouse, xbox controller, and one low-end joystick. I wasn't satisfied with control of my ship until I got the Thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas X Flight Stick. It comes with a separate throttle and even more buttons :laugh: It's pretty hardcore. There are much more complex and expensive ones though, so this was a compromise. If any of you guys end up playing, let me know!
    • Quick Question (Last post by tzb)
    • For the Krishnamurti, yes: www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teach...hp?tid=1294&chid=993 For the Watts, you'd need to look at something like this: www.amazon.com/Still-Mind-An-Introductio...tation/dp/1577312147 - it's not the exact same material but I imagine it's near enough for the IP's purposes.
    • Everything is Made of Energy Stuff (Last post by Adder)
    • Quote: Quote: Different people might get different things from questions, what is 'truth' is best described as whatever helps that person progress closer to moving forward in whatever areas of their life they seek improvement. Doesn't mean we have to ignore the facts in that process. So what if there is a proposition that is not factual but does help the person in the sense that you suggest? By your definition it would then still be truth. So while truth doesn't necessarily conflict with reality, it can, by your standard. Now do you yourself find that an appropriate standard? I suppose this comes down to semantics anyway. Surely there may potentially be partially beneficial things that are in conflict with reality, its just that I couldn't label them as "true" from that point on, because my definition of truth is one that does require conformity with reality. I think growth is the drive of human learning, so its sort of in that context. In complexity 'correct' does not have to mean completely true, it can just mean movement towards truth.... depends on what is being asked I suppose. Not everything has empirical standards to be assessed by, but yes I think I understand what your saying - its why I tried to make a subtle differentiation by using two different terms, between truth (how I used it then) and fact.
    • What form(s) of magic(k) do you practice? (Last post by Arcade)
    • Quote: I already use the "aspects of subconscious self" approach in regards to deities...in regards to spirits... I hope it didn't seem like I was suggesting that you weren't aware of this process (or that you didn't utilize it) in my last post. I was speaking generally. :) I would love to hear more about this if/when you feel up to it. You are welcome to PM me anytime.
    • This Week In Science (Last post by Khaos)
    • SIMPLE BLOOD TEST COULD DETECT ALL TYPES OF CANCER Researchers in the U.K. think we’re getting close to a simple blood test that can diagnose all cancers. Early results show how it can identify cancer and pre-cancerous conditions in patients with melanoma, colon cancer, and lung cancer. By helping doctors rule out certain diseases in people with symptoms, the test could save time and money while preventing the need for painful, invasive procedures like biopsies. Known as the Lymphocyte Genome Sensitivity (LGS) assay, the test looks at white blood cells called lymphocytes and the damage caused to their DNA when subjected to different intensities of ultraviolet light, which causes damage to genetic material. “White blood cells are part of the body’s natural defense system. We know that they are under stress when they are fighting cancer or other diseases, so I wondered whether anything measurable could be seen if we put them under further stress with UVA light,” Diana Anderson from the University of Bradford explains in a news release. Anderson and colleagues examined the lymphocyte responses in 208 people: 20 with melanoma, 34 with colon cancer, 4 with lung cancer, 18 with suspected melanoma, 28 with polyposis, and 10 with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), and 94 healthy volunteers. The samples were coded, randomized, and then exposed to UVA light through five different depths of agar. They found a clear distinction between the damage to the white blood cells from patients with cancer, patients with pre-cancerous conditions, and healthy patients. “People with cancer have DNA which is more easily damaged by ultraviolet light than other people,” Anderson says, “so the test shows the sensitivity to damage of all the DNA -- the genome -- in a cell.” UVA damage shows up in the form of pieces of DNA pulled in an electric field towards the positive end of the field; this creates a tail like the one you’d see trailing a comet. In the LGS test, the longer the comet-like tail, the more DNA damage. The measurements correlated to those patients who were ultimately diagnosed with cancer (58), those with pre-cancerous conditions (56), and those who don’t have cancer (94). A clinical trial is currently underway to test the effectiveness of the LGS test at predicting which patients would benefit from a colonoscopy. The work was published in the FASEB Journal last week Read more at www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/s...#Er4DyxelXKlfkt3D.99
    • Sweden (Last post by AlexanderJ.W)
    • Vad är det som gör att du tycker att Sverige är ett så spännande land, och vad är det som har fått dig intresserad? :9 Må kraften vara med dig

There are 568 visitors, 7 guests and 30 members online (3  are in chat): Akkarin, Octagon, steamboat28, Jestor, ren, Joe, Wescli Wardest, Learn_To_Know, Desolous, Gisteron, Psyddhattha, Proteus, Luthien, Angelus Kalen, Alexandre Orion, MJ Hannigan, Rosalyn J, scott777ab, PatrickB, Khaos, Rickie The Grey, Whyte Horse, Gallileo Oortael, Arcade, Llama Su, Kohadre, Senan, Zenchi, benedictveritas, Trice Corbel, Mathew Erickson, Knigma, TambelSadera, porkapon763.

Follow Us